Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

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beniastrolab
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Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by beniastrolab » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:54 pm

DGS wrote:and has the right of veto, and the right to self determination under Stannary Law.

quoted from here
I was led to believe that the Stannary Parliament only had rights over the tin (and copper) industry?

Trevorpen
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by Trevorpen » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:51 am

I was led to believe that the Stannary Parliament only had rights over the tin (and copper) industry?
You are correct, it covered Cornwall and West Devon.

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Marhak
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by Marhak » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:06 am

You are incorrect. There were two separate Stannary Parliaments, the Cornish one and the Dartmoor one that convened at Crockern Tor. The Cornish one had full fiscal and legislative powers that went way beyond the tin industry and, from 1508, had (and still has) the power of veto over Acts, etc., of the Westminster Parliament. The Dartmoor parliament did not have such a range of powers.

Trevorpen
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by Trevorpen » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:31 pm

You are incorrect. There were two separate Stannary Parliaments, the Cornish one and the Dartmoor one that convened at Crockern Tor. The Cornish one had full fiscal and legislative powers that went way beyond the tin industry and, from 1508, had (and still has) the power of veto over Acts, etc., of the Westminster Parliament. The Dartmoor parliament did not have such a range of powers.
You are correct in your dreams. The Cornish one has no powers of veto over Acts of Parliament. There is no such thing as a Stannary Parliament in Cornwall today. Sadly, there isn't even a tin industry today.

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Mark
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by Mark » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:51 pm

You used to piss me off Trev, now you just crease me up! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I admire your commitment...
As long as a hundred of us remain alive, we shall never give in to the domination of the English. We fight not for glory, not for wealth nor honours but only and alone for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life...

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Marhak
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by Marhak » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:13 pm

(He needs to be committed.)

Yes, Trev, there IS such a thing as the Stannary Parliament. The fact that successive Dukes of Cornwall haven't seen fit to convene one since 1752 is irrelevant. The present Duke STILL appoints a Lord Warden of the Stannaries whose job it is to do just that when instructed. Charlie likes to hedge his bets.

Yes, it DOES have the power of Veto exactly as I mentioned, under the Charter of Pardon 1508, and confirmed as remaining valid at law in 1977 by the Attorney General Lord Elwyn Jones.

As for the tin industry, have you been down South Crofty or Rosevean lately? Didn't think so.

And you talk about MY dreams?

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Marhak
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by Marhak » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:16 pm

PS. For the current facts about the Stannary's validity etc., look up Hansard for 1977. The questions in the House were put by Dafydd Wigley MP (Plaid Cymru).

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Anselm
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by Anselm » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:03 am

Plaid Cymru MPs have been providing us with some very useful support recently.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
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Cornish Pirates

Trevorpen
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by Trevorpen » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:03 am

Quite what has a minority Welsh grouping whom have less than 20% of seats in the Welsh Assembly got to do with Cornwall?

Marhak, this 'so called' Stannary parliament, which has not convened for 350 years does not exist. If you think it does where is its parliament HQ and whom are its members?

beniastrolab
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by beniastrolab » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:06 am

I've just started looking at the Charter...doesn't acceptance of it mean an acceptance that Cornwall is a County?

I'd like to stress this isn't me baiting Marhak (I promise!)

Trevorpen
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by Trevorpen » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:09 am

Cornwall is a county, an English county.

CJenkin
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by CJenkin » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:21 pm

beniastrolab wrote:I've just started looking at the Charter...doesn't acceptance of it mean an acceptance that Cornwall is a County?

I'd like to stress this isn't me baiting Marhak (I promise!)
Hi Ben
The document that you are looking at is probably a translation of the original latin text. In the latin text the word comitatus is used - this word particularly in England is often translated as 'county' e.g. an area under the responsibility of a count. Comitatus is a bit more complex than that though it means a people/territory grouping with liege responsibilities to a king, Duchies, earldom's etc all fall into that category - we could just as easily translate it as 'community' so its difficult to see how this makes Cornwall a modern county. Modern county administration really only started to develop in the tudor period and was part of Elton's Tudor revolution of government. We can perhaps see the same centralising process be applied not just to Cornwall but in Wales, Scotland and Ireland during the 1500s-1700s.
The fact is that Cornwall is unique because of the establishment of the Duchy and makes it constitutionally different to English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish counties. Just because Wales was added to England in 1536 didn't stop it being welsh even with a county administration the same is true for Cornwall it is still Cornish.
TREVORPEN
To suggest Cornwall is an 'English' county is to be as ignorant as can be about historical processes perhaps you need to go back to school. Tudor commentators regularly referred to the foreigh cornish so its only the last few hundred years that the notion of Cornwall being english has gained any ground - largely due to the empire. Cornish people well into the 20th century referred to east of Tamar as furrin. Cornwall's never been english and never will be simple as.

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Marhak
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by Marhak » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:34 pm

Honest to God, you could point Trev at the sunrise, and he'd still swear it's rising in the west!

Even the Boundary Commission in 1988 acknowledged a Cornish joinder with England as "de facto" but not "de jure" (in other words, an unlawful land-grab situation). So did the Royal Commission on the Constitution 1969-73. Both searched for legal proof of an English annexation of Cornwall, and couldn't find any. Because it doesn't exist.

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TGG
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by TGG » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:07 pm


by CJenkin » 11 Jan 2012 12:21 wrote:
To suggest Cornwall is an 'English' county is to be as ignorant as can be about historical processes perhaps you need to go back to school. Tudor commentators regularly referred to the foreigh cornish so its only the last few hundred years that the notion of Cornwall being english has gained any ground - largely due to the empire. Cornish people well into the 20th century referred to east of Tamar as furrin. Cornwall's never been english and never will be simple as.

(TGG highlighting)
Together with the historical synonymy that has deliberately confused, and conflated, any obvious distinction between what is Britain/England, British/English etc., by a 'national majority' political hegemony with its ignorant concept of the Island of England.

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why![/size]
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE! -
They declare their Cornishness with pride
Whilst oblivious to our genocide
That England imposes
With smiles and Red Roses
Where the innocents, so gullibly, reside.


Trevorpen
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Trevorpen » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:24 pm

Whilst I have the greatest respect for many of the contributors on this forum, I cannot accept your continuous remarks, scratching around trying to continually prove that modern Cornwall is somehow not part of England. I use the grammar 'modern' as the times way back in history you refer to, applies to the whole country.
Can we move on to affairs today, not this continuous tired banter by a few in Cornwall trying to say somehow Cornwall is not an English county?
We have a distinct cultural difference from the rest of England, which should be encouraged, just like many other English counties. Trying to re-introduce and enforce a long lost spoken language is not one of them.

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