Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

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CJenkin
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by CJenkin » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:39 pm

language is a distinct cultural difference - why shouldn't it be encouraged as well? It's re-introduction to literate Cornish people has been going on since 1904 so I hardly think that's going to stop people who like to celebrate distinct cultural difference. It is a choice and Cornish will not thrive in the future if people see it as something enforced on them.
I teach my children cornish so they can choose to use it when they become adults that ought to be the aim for everyone - choice is good as is education as it helps dispell ignorance.
Cultural difference is what defines nationalities which is why Cornwall is cornish and England is English.

beniastrolab
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by beniastrolab » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:54 pm

CJenkin wrote:The document that you are looking at is probably a translation of the original latin text. In the latin text the word comitatus is used - this word particularly in England is often translated as 'county' e.g. an area under the responsibility of a count. Comitatus is a bit more complex than that though it means a people/territory grouping with liege responsibilities to a king, Duchies, earldom's etc all fall into that category - we could just as easily translate it as 'community' so its difficult to see how this makes Cornwall a modern county. Modern county administration really only started to develop in the tudor period and was part of Elton's Tudor revolution of government.
Meur ras Conan,

Your explanation is fantastic!

The page that I looked at on the internet was on the stannary website, so I'm suprised (?) that they've allowed that translation.

I'm a supporter of the idea that Cornwall is a country, not a county, by the way...

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TGG
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by TGG » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:26 pm


by beniastrolab » 11 Jan 2012 13:54

The page that I looked at on the internet was on the stannary website, so I'm suprised (?) that they've allowed that translation.


The issue, surely, is not whether someone can translate a document, according to their own, or other's perception, but what the original document actually said. All documents and translations are open to being interpreted and to not let yourself be blinded by other factors in the haste to make 'a point'.

The document that you are referring to announces that the Duchy had been 'created' (sic). It even states when this occurred. The very next reference is to "the aforesaid county of Cornwall. To what does the 'aforesaid' comment refer?

In the actual Act of Parliament (that preceded the Charter), referred to in a later Act of Parliament (extract from the statute 9 Henry V), it says:

“Vide Act of 9 Hen. V., for there it is affirmed by the whole Parliament : That at the Parliament held at Westminster the Monday next after the Feast of St. Matthias the Apostle in the 11th year of the reign of King Edw. III., amongst other things it was agreed that the eldest sons of the Kings of England, scilicet those who should be next heirs to the Realm of England, should be Dukes of Cornwall, and that the County of Cornwall (Countee used in the Norman-French original) should always remain as a Duchy to the eldest sons of the Kings of England, who should be next heirs to the said Realm without being given elsewhere.”

TGG highlighting


As CJ says the modern use of 'county' does not distinguish between the Comitatus (the territory of a Count/Earl) or the vicecomitatus (the territory under the jurisdiction of the sheriff.)

Therefore, the answer to my question, to you, above is that the word 'aforesaid' could equally refer to the use of the word 'shrievalty' (namely, sheriffdom) or the reference to the Duchy. It is not clear, but land & taxes etc., usually relate to the vicecomitatus and there is no political point to be achieved by decrying its use. The territory of the vicecomitatus is within and coextensive to the Comitatus (Earldom now a Duchy) and the sheriff is the principal officer of the Duke's civil government of Cornwall. The crucial point for the Trev or Pens of this world is that it is not in England.

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why!
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE! -
They declare their Cornishness with pride
Whilst oblivious to our genocide
That England imposes
With smiles and Red Roses
Where the innocents, so gullibly, reside.


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Marhak
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Marhak » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:19 pm

In addition, it is worth noting (incl. by Trev) that the Sheriffs of Cornwall are appointed by the Duke, not by the Queen as is the case elsewhere in the UK. Another pointer to the fact that Cornwall is not part of England.

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Marhak
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Marhak » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:24 pm

No, Trev. we can't "move on". You don't weasel out that easily. We have proven, by any number of irrefutable facts (not opinions) that Cornwall is not, and never has been, legally a part of England. You haven't produced one single scrap of evidence to support your misguided belief to the contrary. Now's your chance....

zennorman2
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by zennorman2 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:48 pm

Talking about the Stannary is not a good advert for the aim of a modern, devolved Cornwall. Some of their people simply cannot engage and are pretty intolerant.

Fulub-le-Breton
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Fulub-le-Breton » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:59 pm

I'd certainly be happy to see the CSP relaunched as an open and active group fighting for Cornish rights. What they did with the English Heritage signs was truly great.

zennorman2
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by zennorman2 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:25 pm

Only if all your 3x Great Grandparents are Cornish. As their most 'eloquent' speaker said once. Fulub, it would have to be one hell of a relaunch.

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Anselm
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Re: Who owns Scilly?

Post by Anselm » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:34 pm

TGG wrote:
by CJenkin » 11 Jan 2012 12:21 wrote:
To suggest Cornwall is an 'English' county is to be as ignorant as can be about historical processes perhaps you need to go back to school. Tudor commentators regularly referred to the foreigh cornish so its only the last few hundred years that the notion of Cornwall being english has gained any ground - largely due to the empire. Cornish people well into the 20th century referred to east of Tamar as furrin. Cornwall's never been english and never will be simple as.

(TGG highlighting)
Together with the historical synonymy that has deliberately confused, and conflated, any obvious distinction between what is Britain/England, British/English etc., by a 'national majority' political hegemony with its ignorant concept of the Island of England.

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why![/size]
Yn-sur yth esos yn lagas dha le. Pow yn-dann rewl Yurl - po 'Kont' - yth o Kernow, herwydh gis Pow-Flemen, po Edessa, po lies pow hwath. Pennsevigyon diblans o Yurles Kernow, hag yn-hwir y teth onan anedha dhe vones Myghtern Almayn.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
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ThingsThatGoFlirInTheShla
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by ThingsThatGoFlirInTheShla » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:54 pm

Are you lot still arguing with trolls? I haven't been on here in a year (it looks as though many others have taken leave as well) and yet people still can't see that Trevorpen is f****ng with you. Come on people. Open your eyes!

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Anselm
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Anselm » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:52 am

He's in fact doing it with himself, but our general point is quite right.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

Trevorpen
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Trevorpen » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:58 am

language is a distinct cultural difference - why shouldn't it be encouraged as well? It's re-introduction to literate Cornish people has been going on since 1904 so I hardly think that's going to stop people who like to celebrate distinct cultural difference. It is a choice and Cornish will not thrive in the future if people see it as something enforced on them.
I teach my children cornish so they can choose to use it when they become adults that ought to be the aim for everyone - choice is good as is education as it helps dispell ignorance.
Cultural difference is what defines nationalities which is why Cornwall is cornish and England is English.
Thanks for your reply CJenkin.
I agree nearly with 100%. The idea how somehow Cornish should be enforced as some forum contributors suggest is quite daft.
Not sure about your last sentence- Cornwall is not a nation - it has no instruments of nationhood and the are many cultural differences within England.

Trevorpen
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Trevorpen » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:47 am

Mike, I completely agree. My family name is Cornish, my heritage is Cornish. I have studied Cornish - long may it survive.
BUT I regard Cornwall as part of England.

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Marhak
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Marhak » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:34 pm

"He's in fact doing it with himself". Just what we've been saying all along...... :D

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