Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Topical debate
Post Reply
User avatar
factotum
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by factotum » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:03 pm

I'd be the first to admit that what I've written is pretty obvious, that's why like 'visitor' I'm completely baffled as to why nothing has happened really in all the twenty plus years I've been down here, listening to (and btw mostly agreeing with) you lot go on endlessly about how and why Cornwall is a nation -- and yet nothing really happens. Last general election, when Plaid and the SNP were making great gains, there was MK with a few percent of votes, down with all the silly parties and no hope-ers. That really disillusioned me. So please, all you wise and experienced political types, please explain what has gone wrong, why you're not managing to connect with the population at large.

User avatar
factotum
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:15 pm

On your money question, when weRe: Duchy, Stannary and the V

Post by factotum » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:13 pm

"On your money question, when we needed funds to allow Angarrack to overcome the bent judge situation, ie. to take it to the next step, we were looking at raising £100k. I think we only managed to reach around £45k in pledges, which just wasn't enough."
I'd very much like to see how that figure was arrived at, although it's round nature rather suggests it was pulled out of thin air. But you can have my £2 tomorrow (indeed I'll send you a fiver, how about that) once you figure out how to get £2 out of the other 49,999 of you imaginary supporters. Indeed you claim those who signed the petition were just a fraction of your true support, so maybe 50p each would have paid the bent lawyer you needed to straighten out the bent judge. But all this, I'm afraid, reeks of a badly scripted fantasy. How much will it cost to raise Arthur? (Awoz nynz yw marow ...)

capten

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by capten » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:05 pm

factotum wrote:I'd be the first to admit that what I've written is pretty obvious, that's why like 'visitor' I'm completely baffled as to why nothing has happened really in all the twenty plus years I've been down here, listening to (and btw mostly agreeing with) you lot go on endlessly about how and why Cornwall is a nation -- and yet nothing really happens. Last general election, when Plaid and the SNP were making great gains, there was MK with a few percent of votes, down with all the silly parties and no hope-ers. That really disillusioned me. So please, all you wise and experienced political types, please explain what has gone wrong, why you're not managing to connect with the population at large.
It must be great, not being part of "us lot" means you can give us all your insightful analysis while not actually doing any of the work and avoid the shame of being labelled as part of "the silly parties and no hope-ers". If only there were more like you, oh great one!

User avatar
factotum
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by factotum » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:24 pm

But that's not the point is it. There's only one of me so whatever I do or don't do has little bearing on anything. But there are apparently plenty of you, so what do you think has gone wrong? It's not as if Cornish identity and nationalism and devolution etc were invented last week. They've been around for decades, longer that many reading this will have been alive. Many books have been published explaining and promoting the ideas, from many different standpoints, etc. etc. So why (to give one obvious example) is the population not (figuratively) "up in arms" over the slap in the face they got over the petition? Or more recently getting totally shafted by our oh so reasonable and pro-Cornish LibDem MP's ... I mean what sort of people are the Cornish to take all of this lying down? Do you go around wearing signs saying "kick me!"?

capten

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by capten » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:39 pm

factotum wrote:There's only one of me so whatever I do or don't do has little bearing on anything.
I'd say more like no bearing at all, but now we're just splitting hairs...

User avatar
Stephen Richardson
Posts: 310
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:03 pm

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Stephen Richardson » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:45 pm

I think that Factotum has made several valid points and that this is exactly the fair and reasoned critical analysis of Cornish nationalism that needs to be addressed.

The Cornish cultural movements are doing a great job of propmoting Cornish culture. However, until more people get involved in the political side then we will always be open to the argument that there is no poular support because, at the ballot box, it has been fairly true.

This doesn't mean that we should give up though. It needs more political activists to get involved. To become candidates, to give time to help with campaigns or just to make a difference in local communities.

Factotum is just the messenger as far as I can see. There's no need to shoot him. Political Cornish nationalists need to be more and more productive and to make their message relevant to all the people of Cornwall.

There are people on this forum who have been saying this for a long time - what we need is for them and others to make it a reality.

MK will always struggle in Westminster elections until we achieve a strong representation in local elections. We need to have social and economic policies that people want to vote for at unitary level. Once we can get a strong group there then I believe that a virtuous circle will be created and that MK will begin to do well at Westminster level.

There is no need to be negative - just recognose weaknesses and threats and turn them into strengths and opportunities.
When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.

Rosko
Posts: 587
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:45 am

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Rosko » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:27 pm

Good point, well made...

Factotum has an obvious interest and would probably welcome some more positive developments. Visitor's obviously a penny short, and had a run in with an MK activist being a bit too active, a year or so ago, so doesn't want to impress his mates any more, by signing 'random' petitions...

For the record, Factorum, I believe the figure i mentioned was based on rounded estimates of costs for losing the high court case, being threatened by the 'judge', had the action been appealed, and estimated costs of the next legal step; so not really plucked out of thin air...

beniastrolab
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:40 am
Location: Redruth

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by beniastrolab » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:31 pm

factotum wrote:So why (to give one obvious example) is the population not (figuratively) "up in arms" over the slap in the face they got over the petition?
Because it was 10 years ago
factotum wrote:Or more recently getting totally shafted by our oh so reasonable and pro-Cornish LibDem MP's
Because the MK alternative to these snivelling little shits is often someone who doesn't even look like they're dressed to represent the local population (I will say that Stephen Richardson/Dick Cole/John whatshisname and a few others are definitely not included in my generalisations).

I spend alot of time wondering how the people of Cornwall have managed to become so accepting of being treated like shit. I often wonder how they (or anyone) can vote for one of 3 party's who, at the end of the day, have nothing more than histories of failure, time and time again....

But what is the option? Let's be honest, those who identify themselves as anything other than Cornish are going to find it hard to vote for anything that says "Cornish, Cornish, Cornish". MK desperately needs a makeover, it needs to move with the times, it needs to understand that it is representing the "People of Cornwall", it needs to become vital if it is to secure a greater vote...where's the engagement with the younger voters? Where's any sort of engagement?

C'mon...have a dig at me...I vote MK anyway, but have a dig...

Rosko
Posts: 587
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:45 am

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Rosko » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:01 pm

Another goo point, well made... And I've always voted MK too, despite all the obvious weaknesses, but also because, as you correctly point out, the 3 main parties have done little other than to shit on, and laugh at the Cornish, for a long, long time.

Had the libdems kept their word on just a fraction of the promises they made to the people of Cornwall, they would not only have kept all their seats at the last election, but kept control of the council AND secured Cornwall politically for years to come...

User avatar
factotum
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by factotum » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:12 pm

When you promote something, doesn't matter if it's a product or an idea, political, religious, a fashion or whatever ... there will be out there a certain proportion of people who just by their nature and circumstances will be receptive. The harder you promote the message the more of this pool of potential converts you'll reach, but eventually you'll achieve saturation. Now with the internet this will happen much more quickly than ever in the past. Soon you'll have reached almost everyone who's likely to be interested. Then, large or small, the movement will stagnate. And then fragment as its members argue over what exactly is wrong with the message, and generally turn in on themselves and become irrelevant to the wider world. The only way to avoid stagnation is when the movement makes some change in the real lives of people, even a small change, so that as a result the cause/message/product or whatever actually becomes relevant to a larger proportion of the population. Then you get a snowball effect. Nothing succeeds like success. MK ought at the very least to be getting pulled along in the slipstream of Plaid and SNP successes, but don't in fact seem to be going anywhere. I'm trying to warn you. In a few short years Scotland (and Wales?) will be gone, and the permanently Tory government Former-UK will be in no mood to grant anything to Cornwall but will more likely do whatever it can to achieve total assimilation, ("We are the Borg ... Resistance is Useless ...")

beniastrolab
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:40 am
Location: Redruth

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by beniastrolab » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:12 pm

True Rosko...I'd had enough of them the moment I'd found out about Julia Goldsworthy and the rocking chair that cost more than my months wages...how she thought she had her finger on the pulse of CPR/Falmouth I've no idea.

The LIbDems will never keep a promise, we saw that with their "A vote for MK is a vote for the Conservatives" styled propaganda in the last election...I almost crapped myself with laughter when they changed tack and shat on every one of their supporters (which somehow seems to be pretty much forgotten already) by cosying up to the Tories.

capten

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by capten » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:30 pm

Ok then, let's have a look at his arguments:
This means you have to appeal to the ordinary people of the Duchy. Not a few tartan-clad super patriots who bang on endlessly about 'genocide'. That sort of stuff makes you look looney and does not win votes.
Who is actually doing this? What about MK actually makes you think that they're trying to appeal to nationalists instead of the public at large?
Playing "I'm more Cornish than thou" is not a winner. You have to pull people in, not exclude them because they don't have the correct accent or the right quote of Cornish great-grandparents.
Again, who in MK is doing this? MK has long been advocating a position of inclusive, civic Cornishness. Where are you getting your assumptions from? Constructive criticism is one thing but criticism is useless if it's not based on fact.
I'd be the first to admit that what I've written is pretty obvious, that's why like 'visitor' I'm completely baffled as to why nothing has happened really in all the twenty plus years I've been down here
The idea that nothing has really happened over the past twenty years is completely inaccurate. An awful lot has happened over the past twenty years. MK has grown in strength, it has matured from an activist group into a political party, it has seen a huge increase in media attention, it has seen a huge increase of people's awareness of it both in Cornwall and outside, it has helped to put devolution and other issues onto the Cornish political agenda, its vote share is going up including beating Labour at the Euro elections, and its number of elected representatives in parish councils and Cornwall Council is increasing. How can you say that's "nothing"?
Last general election, when Plaid and the SNP were making great gains, there was MK with a few percent of votes, down with all the silly parties and no hope-ers.
Another statement based on ignorance. At the last general election, Plaid did very poorly and the SNP barely moved. And that "silly parties and no hope-ers" remark says more about your insecurity than it does about MK - whose vote at the last election went up 66%.
why you're not managing to connect with the population at large
Your perception of "the population at large" is all wrong. The public is not one block of people that you can either connect with or not. They are all individuals, some of whom you can connect with, and some of whom it's harder to connect with. There is also the ability to connect to factor in, MK's platform for doing so is not as strong as the larger parties. The amount of individuals that MK connects with is constantly growing, and considering the mountain that needs to be climbed, it has come a long way suprisingly quickly.
They've been around for decades, longer that many reading this will have been alive. Many books have been published explaining and promoting the ideas, from many different standpoints, etc. etc.
Books have indeed been published. But that is no indication of a campaign's success or failure. What you need is for people to read what's been published. Why do you not understand that the very idea of Cornwall being a nation is completely new to so many people? Not just to the people who are alive today, but centuries of English and then British society? The nationalist movement is trying to explain to people in Cornwall that that uniqueness and specialness they hold for Cornwall and their Cornish identity is not just local pride but the remnants of a nationhood, and it's trying to explain to people in the rest of the UK that their idea of the political and national makeup of their country is missing a key factor. You really think that could happen quickly? It's been going on since the mid 1800s, and it's still going on. It will take a very long time to change such an ingrained perception.
So why (to give one obvious example) is the population not (figuratively) "up in arms" over the slap in the face they got over the petition?
It's a decades-long constitutional process that doesn't affect people's day-to-day lives, not a sudden unacceptable rise in food prices. Do you really expect people to be camped out on Truro Piazza for decades on end? The way to campaign for constitutional change is to do exactly what's being done, cross-party Constitutional Conventions, pressure groups, media attention, and getting the idea of devolution into mainstream Cornish politics. How long were Scottish and Welsh campaigners pressing for devolution before they got it? Go and find out. It's a decades-long process not a sudden action.
Or more recently getting totally shafted by our oh so reasonable and pro-Cornish LibDem MP's ... I mean what sort of people are the Cornish to take all of this lying down? Do you go around wearing signs saying "kick me!"?
Most people have a greater political attention span than a goldfish and are capable of taking into account more than one political issue when they cast their ballot. Cornwall is essentially a two-party system and anyone who doesn't vote Tory generally votes Lib Dem. With the current anger at the Lib Dems, MK is in a prime position to become the left's alternative vote and will be taking advantage of that as best its current resources can.
In a few short years Scotland (and Wales?) will be gone, and the permanently Tory government Former-UK will be in no mood to grant anything to Cornwall but will more likely do whatever it can to achieve total assimilation, ("We are the Borg ... Resistance is Useless ...")
This is an opinion, not fact. It is not certain that Scotland will get independence. Welsh independence will not happen for decades at least. England has not always voted Tory, 1997 a key example. The UK government is in no mood to grant Cornwall devolution now, so the prospect of devolution cannot get any worse for Cornwall barring a shift to authoritarianism. An independent England is so far in the future that it would be pointless trying to predict anyone's political mood then.

Right, I'm off to see if I can get the last 30 minutes of my life back...

Rosko
Posts: 587
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:45 am

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Rosko » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:07 pm

Excellent points, well presented, Cap!

Over to you, Factotum...

visitor
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:18 pm

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by visitor » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:34 pm

Rosko wrote: Visitor's obviously a penny short, and had a run in with an MK activist being a bit too active, a year or so ago, so doesn't want to impress his mates any more, by signing 'random' petitions...
Bit of a silly comment you have made Rosko, I think most people here understand my points but they seem to go right past you, but let me explain the MK problem as I see it, so you can understand it more clearly and we don't need to cyber bully people as it makes you look like you are unable to debate etc.

So what I am saying is take the School incident, which played out on here you had people wading in with sledge hammers vigorously attacking that school and its good name, on this site it is taken that it is a pro MK site so after this nasty false story had finished I am betting it had upset an awful lot of people who had some links with that school, would they be voting MK? even if it was a no in the first place, you now end up in a lose lose situation, on the rugby front same again, then we have the likes of one Mike C and the Celtic League again nothing to do with MK directly but it has a knock on effect with many people in Cornwall, it is not good. I think C24 needs to weight in carefully before letting people kick off on this site, as getting it wrong is very costly. Also trying a less abrasive way of dealing with something is good as overall it will win a more friendly and trusting view of the movement in time, it is the basics of good business it makes for a feel good factor.

Rosko
Posts: 587
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:45 am

Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Vet

Post by Rosko » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:12 pm

I'm not being silly at all, Visitor.

I've tried debating with you. Just look at the posts on this thead!! You don't debate anything; you just make assertions and present them as fact, completely ignoring what others say. Hence my comments about you not being very genuine, or possibly not the full shilling.

Factotum came on with criticisms which were all quite clear and presented as his opinion, without hysteria and badly disguised antagonism towards MK, or nationalists, for that matter. Whether some thought he was being simplistic or not, he actually tried to contribute positive thoughts and ideas, as opposed to your rantings, which are, to be fair, unintelligible, most of the time. I may not agree with all he says, but at least he's contributing to a serious debate, whereas you...

Again, what the hell do you know about that school (did you attend the school? Were you there when these incidents occurred? Do you know the patents and/or teachers involved?) , about that rugby club (do you regularly attend matches? Know the players? The CEO? The owner? The club's history? The history of Cornish rugby?), about the Celtic League (were you a member? Were you there when a parent from the school approached them? Do you attend meetings? Did you contribute to the letter to the school? Have you read their letter?)?!! 
Probably sod all, but you come on here, in your own little world, with your own little views, spouting your divine 'truths', as though you'd had them sent down on sacred tablets...

Learn to listen. Learn to debate. Learn to respect others (and you may get some back, one day...). Learn to spell. And then perhaps it is you, not I, that might be taken seriously.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests