Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

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capten
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by capten » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:34 pm

factotum wrote:I am like visitor puzzled, and I'm hardly a newcomer to the scene. We supposedly live in a democracy (don't all laugh at once!) which means that if things are not to our liking in some fundamental way, we ought to be able to vote for someone to put things right. And given enough time, a party or faction should emerge to do just that. Now the idea that Cornwall is not England has been being propagated for many decades now, along with the idea that Cornwall gets a raw deal from London/SW Region/Devonwall etc. All of this was clearly set out, just to give one example, in Cornwall at the Crossroads, and how long ago was that? We have the 10% petition, we have the Mori majority, we have Cornish flags flying all over the place, and yet none of this is reflected politically. Did you pin your hopes on the local LibDems? They were shafted by their own party. If they had any trace of honour they'd have resigned the whip at that point and formed a new pro-Cornish party, or defected to MK. But no, they shafted you all instead. So what happens now? By rights MK should pick up the votes, but somehow MK has failed to connect with the public. Not just MK but the wider concept of Cornwall as a nation with the right and indeed the need to be able to do its own thing in its own way. So why the disconnect and how to remedy it.
And people wondered why I didn't initially bother to answer you.

Everything you wrote in that post you have already said in this discussion. You are just repeating yourself. Either you haven't read what anyone wrote, you've forgotten what people wrote or you're being intentionally obtuse. I'm not going to repeat myself, you can read it all again above. If you disagree with what I said that's up to you but do not go claiming that nobody is answering your questions.

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Stephen Richardson
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Stephen Richardson » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:16 pm

Factotum, perhaps there are a combination of circumstances that may make this period of history more benevolent towards Cornish Nationalists.

The establishment has always been very firmly in control of information and education. Is this why, even though the idea of a Cornish nation has always existed since Roman times and before, it has always been played down?

With very easy and widespread access to the internet and social and news networks, people no longer have to rely on the establishment for their information and so ideas that are outside the establishment norm can be tested by the average person on the street. The SNP attribute a lot of their success to their excellent use of Facebook.

At the same time, since the second world war (and in parfticular the break up of the Soviet block), there seems to have been a move towards the fragmentation of larger states (which were often imposed on the people who lived in them against their will) into smaller units based on more long standing boundaries and consisting of ethnic groups. Thus the move towards an independent Scotland could be viewed as a continuation of this pattern. It takes time but, although 30, 40 or 50 years may be a lifetime for the people living during those years, it is a relatively small time period in the larger picture. 50 years ago there would have been virtually no talk of an independent Scotland and if you had had a vote then only a tiny number of people would have voted for independence. Now it is going to be a close run thing.

Another, possibly more short-term, phenomenon is the very low esteem in which politicians are held. I'm not saying that politicians have ever been popular, but the fact remains that modern, internet based media means that for career politicians, who are more interested in their own economics than of the people who vote for them, any hint of wrongdoing or fraudulent behaviour is more likely to be exposed and paraded before ordinary people who would not have even have learned about it in the past.

The Westminster parties are clearly full of people who see politics as a career to make money from - this is becoming more and more evidenced and made public as time goes on. Now if anyone joined MK as a method of carving out a highly lucrative career, I think they will be sorely disappointed - at least for the next twenty years or so. Surely people give credit to politicians that they can see do not get a financial boon simply from being a politician - and surely this will make them more credible - up until the point when their cause gains a large popular support and provides the opportunity for career politicians to join just to make money!

I guess that what I am trying to say is that there is a global underlying groundswell movement in favour of Cornish Nationalism. Given time I believe tha MK can gain a large amount of pubic support. How fast we can do this depends on how well we are organised and how quickly we can begin the process of growing the trickle of activists into a torrent and then a flood.
When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.

Rosko
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Rosko » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:42 pm

Again, good points well made, Stephen.

Factotum, although Capten doesn't enjoy your style and repetition, I do think you ask good questions, some which you no doubt already know the answer to. However, good all the same, I believe. But please, please, please don't mention Visitor or put yourself in same boat, as you are very different animals and mentioning him in your posts will encourage his mischievous (yet limited and very repetitive) posts here, and thus interrupt, or even stop the discussion, which otherwise, I'm finding interesting to read...

Thank you.

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factotum
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by factotum » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:33 pm

Whether mischeviously of genuinely, we're both asking basically the same questions. And I think there may well be many people who drop by this site and feel exactly like Visitor, but just don't bother to post. Does MK need a complete make-over, or replacing by a different party or pressure group? Is there any appeal to "the young"? I'm thinking here of people from their teens to late twenties, the time when people look outwards, are open to new ideas and form what often become lifelong attitudes. What does Cornwall have to offer that group today? What is there they can relate to. So much Cornish rhetoric is base in the past. There's an "Old Cornwall Society" but no "New Cornwall Society". Is there even any discussion of exactly what kind of society we'd like to see in Cornwall in the future? The past is important and there to draw from, but endlessly grumbling about the death toll in ancient battles won't bring the hope and confidence needed to build a better attractive Cornish future.

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capten
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by capten » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:04 pm

factotum wrote:Does MK need a complete make-over, or replacing by a different party or pressure group? Is there any appeal to "the young"? I'm thinking here of people from their teens to late twenties, the time when people look outwards, are open to new ideas and form what often become lifelong attitudes. What does Cornwall have to offer that group today? What is there they can relate to. So much Cornish rhetoric is base in the past. There's an "Old Cornwall Society" but no "New Cornwall Society". Is there even any discussion of exactly what kind of society we'd like to see in Cornwall in the future? The past is important and there to draw from, but endlessly grumbling about the death toll in ancient battles won't bring the hope and confidence needed to build a better attractive Cornish future.
The reason you are asking these questions is because you know so little, which is because you choose not to get involved and instead comment from the sidelines in a position of ignorance. That's also the reason you make so many inaccurate assumptions and illogical conclusions, such as your claim that most of the nationalist movement is banging on about the past. Some examples of organisations that are looking to the future, if you cared to listen, are Mebyon Kernow, the Cornish Constitutional Convention and CoSERG. Three of the most prominent groups.

If you want there to be a debate on Cornwall's future then you need to get involved and start it. Not spend your time posting idle questions on an insignificant internet forum.

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TeamKernow
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by TeamKernow » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:28 pm

capten wrote:an insignificant internet forum.
Hardly that, capten.

:idea: Page 1 :idea:.........:idea: Page 154 :idea:

Take a look at some of the in-depth, highly knowledgeable and erudite gems in between.

Movers and shakers across the land take notice and pay attention.

'MOST significant Cornish forum' would be a more accurate description.

Unless you know of any other that comes close.

Do you?

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factotum
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by factotum » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:32 pm

How is one supposed to become informed other than be asking questions of those who claim to know the answers? How is one supposed to start a debate, other than by raising issues and seeing the responses? For instance how about listing some concrete initiatives that would motivate young adults to see things from a Cornish perspective. Why not give or give links to some answers that I, Visitor, and all the silent lurkers that pass through, can see and be inspired by. You achieve nothing by objecting to our asking, you simply come over as defensive, which might lead anyone to conclude that you really have no answers. I really do hope that isn't the case.

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TeamKernow
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by TeamKernow » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:03 pm

Care to indicate to whom your latest post above is addressed, factotum?

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capten
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by capten » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:18 pm

factotum wrote:How is one supposed to become informed other than be asking questions of those who claim to know the answers? How is one supposed to start a debate, other than by raising issues and seeing the responses? For instance how about listing some concrete initiatives that would motivate young adults to see things from a Cornish perspective. Why not give or give links to some answers that I, Visitor, and all the silent lurkers that pass through, can see and be inspired by. You achieve nothing by objecting to our asking, you simply come over as defensive, which might lead anyone to conclude that you really have no answers. I really do hope that isn't the case.
You speak as though you think that by posting messages on this forum, you are making this great contribution to the nationalist movement. Here's the reality: you're not. This forum is not read by a fraction of 1% of the nationalist movement, and an even smaller fraction of Cornish residents, and when people say this website is "important" to the cause, it's actually only "important" to the community of online armchair activists, who depend on this site because they're not involved anywhere else.

Do you think the MK and CCC leadership spend their time reading this site and taking in all it has to offer? No, they're out on the streets, talking to real people to find out what issues are affecting them, discussing MK strategies with real people who are getting involved.

Do you think MK activists should spend their time on this site, arguing against your circular, ignorant arguments and every English nationalist that pops up now and then? No, they spend their time talking to real people, in the real world, where the votes are.

How do you get informed? Not by expecting everyone to take the time to spell things out for you personally. If you want to find out things, do your own homework. Get involved. MK don't have enough resources as it is, they're not going to waste what little they have dealing with one incessently potential supporter. They're too busy trying to spell things out for the wider public.

How do you start a debate? Not by asking questions, ignoring answers, asking the same questions, and then claiming nobody's answering you.

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factotum
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by factotum » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:56 am

Really Captain. Pray tell where the real debate is raging?

Rosko
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Rosko » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:05 am

It's Capten, Factorum, Capten.

Although I believe you've asked some good questions, Capten does have a point. Stephen Richardson has tried to answer many of these, inasmuch as one can, via this forum, which, as has been said, is only read by a limited audience (I know hordes of politicians and activists, not all Cornish ones, who never read, or in some cases, haven't even heard of C24).

So given your interest in Cornish affairs, Factotum, much of it I believe to be actually positive - not surprising, as a Scot and fellow Celt - could you tell us a bit more about your offline activities in support of Cornish culture, politics and self-determination?

visitor
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by visitor » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:04 pm

Stephen Richardson
Visitor, I really can't understand why you equate the petition with 50,000 signatures to an MK vote. It makes no sense.

If someone signs a petition to 'save the NHS' does it automatically make them a Labour voter?

There was a Mori poll a couple of years after the petition and that showed that 55% of the population were in favour of a Cornish Assembly - does this mean that Mori should have got lots of votes?
The elected members of MK have been recently holding up a 50,000 signed petition saying "we represent these people", so why wouldn't the people equate MK with this? This isn't the NHS question this is the single most important subject that MK talk about, if I am wrong, what is the party about? As for some unexplained reason MK don't have a website, so someone please clear this up?
Stephen Richardson
Collecting 50,000 signatures, all verified, took a lot of hard work over several months…

If you think about this perhaps you will answer your own question about the discrepancy between the 50,000 signatures and any online petition.

As for voting intentions
Without a doubt, agreed it must have also been a very exciting time in the Cornish movement and then only to be let down by an ever changing world. However It doesn't answer that question unless you are saying people won't back this idea unless stopped in the street and ask to. As for voting is this "Cornish Assembly" idea the main item that sets MK a part from the rest or is it something else?
you can try and undermine the Cornish Nationalist
I am as above questing elected people who are attempting to present a petition that is over ten years old and also having a debate which as we can see some on here are desperately trying to avoid,

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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by P_Trembath » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:52 pm

visitor wrote: .............................As for some unexplained reason MK don't have a website, so someone please clear this up?
http://www.mebyonkernow.org Being updated at present, but definitely there!

Also, try:- http://mebyonkernow.blogspot.com

If you really want to know
visitor wrote:what is the party about?
Then try talking to them, their elected members, their party members, directly, not through some third party Internet forum that most of them do not frequent.
They are a small party, but getting bigger.
They do not have the funds required to "reach out" as they would wish to the general population yet, but they will.
They do, however, have to put up with the constant misinformation put out in the media by those who have an agenda, or those who just don't know what they are commenting on. "They have no website" is one of the milder "misunderstandings"(?) that get repeated as "the Truth", time and time again. Such misinformation is just one of the many ways that "vested interests" attempt to keep MK as a small party, but as more and more people start to actually do some research themselves, such tactics will cease to work, and those that resort to them will be shown up for what they are.
Everyone, Cornish or otherwise, has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small; no one is too old or too young to do something.

visitor
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by visitor » Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:13 pm

Thanks, for the website link, but it is just links all under a domain name and gives us this information "Website Under Construction" and has not changed for sometime. I think a proper statement from MK on this would clear it up and stop as you rightly point out all that "constant misinformation"
Then try talking to them, their elected members,
Isn't that what I am doing right now on this forum talking with Stephen Richardson?

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Stephen Richardson
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Stephen Richardson » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:51 pm

There you go again visitor! The web site doesn't merely say 'website under constrution' - it also includes a form if anyone wants tocontact MK as well as several links to other sites and pages that might be of interest to someone viewing the MK website. There is also information about what MK stands for and a (admittedly slightly dated) video featuring several members of MK.

There is a small team of people working on the website but we do not have the money to pay someone, like the Westminster parties do, and the volunteers have to work extremely hard first to learn the skills that they need before they can go on to apply them in constructing a workable website.

MK is the only political party that supports the idea of a Crnish Assembly. Although a few 'pick and mix' Lib Dems might support the idea, it certainly isn't party policy.

Therefore, I think it fair to say that we represent around 55% (given the Mori poll) of the population on this issue. It might also be fair to say that we fully represent the people who put a Cornish Assembly at the top of their political agenda. This clearly doesn't mean that we represent 55% of the people who consider a wide spectrum of issues before they place a cross on their ballot paper.

This is the challenge that faces MK - to communicate our message in a way that is more releveant to the spectrum of issues in people's minds when they vote.

For me a Cornish Assembly is a massive issue for two main reasons.

First of all a Cornish Assembly would be a major part of recognising Cornwall and the Cornish people as a nation. Whether you believe this is the case is up to you - there are many online discussions around this subject and I accept that you will probably disagree, as is your right.

Just as important (and probably of more relevance to voters) is whether an Assembly would be a social and economic benefit for the people of Cornwall.

Naturally, I believe it would. I believe that the Westminster parties are more interested in the well-being of themselves (personally), London, and the South East of England, than they are in any part of the UK. I also believe that people who live and work in Cornwall are best placed to address the particular needs that Cornwall has and that a 'one size fits all' Westminster policy is not necessarily the best thing for Cornwall.

Once again, visitor, you are clearly quite at liberty to disagree (and probably will). Perhaps though, instead of simply stating what you are against (if indeed you are against anything other than MK or Cornish nationalism), maybe you might state what you believe is the best way forward for Cornwall?

Which principles do you actually believe in?

Do you have anything positive to say or is your purpose merely to try and undermine the message that MK brings?
When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.

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