Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

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TeamKernow
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by TeamKernow » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:20 pm

factotum wrote:Cornwall probably needs a decentralised university modelled on the UHI.
Surely you meant to write 'centralised' (i.e. run right here in Kernow), factotum.
Those anglo-centric orientational descriptions are so insidious and pernicious.
Don't you think?

Let those soulful highlanders, Runrig, lift your spirit...




Rosko
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Rosko » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:28 am

Marhak & Factotum, you've hit the nail on the head.

The channel islands are actually run as two separate states, Jersey being the larger one - population circa 90,000. They have their own non-party politics including Senators and Deputies. They make their own laws, raise their own taxes and yet QE2, as Duchess of Normandy, is still technically head of state, with a permanent Lieutenant-governor representing her on the island (the position is purely ceremonial as he carries no authority). The islands have their own fisheries, farming and tourism rules and none of these or their other laws can be interfered or tampered with by the self-serving Westminster fat cats.
They are not full members of the EU, yet have access to all the markets with no travel restrictions.

They keep control over immigration, housing, residency and population growth, depending on their own needs and capabilities. Yet with more limited benefit and healthcare provision, they still manage a much higher standard of living than other Britons.

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Marhak
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Marhak » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:47 pm

(Off topic but thank you, Keith, for the kind thoughts regarding the retirement of my equine drinking partner - who is fine other than his age and arthritis. I feel kind of lost without a horse after so many decades but, until I get the polycythaemia I've contracted sorted out, or at least under control, riding is inadvisable anyway. Still, I now have the mellotron to keep me busy).

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TGG
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by TGG » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:16 pm


Back on topic. :) Probably time that we give a bit more thought to the words of Dr Johnson, and his attempt to ridicule the idea of American Independence, by drawing a parallel with Cornwall. The full text of his address may be read here , but the relevant bit is copied below:
[/size]
Dr Samuel Johnson - Taxation No Tyranny - 1775

Extract - Pg 68 to 78

When subordinate communities oppose the decrees of the general legislature with defiance thus audacious, and malignity thus acrimonious, nothing remains but to conquer or yield; to allow their claim of independence, or to reduce them by force to submission and allegiance.

It might be hoped, that no Englishman could be found, whom the menaces of our Colonist, just rescued from the French, would not move to indignation, like that of the Scythians, who returning from war, found themselves excluded from their own houses by their slaves.

That corporation constituted by favour, and existing by sufferance, should dare to prohibit commerce with their native country, and threaten individuals by infamy, and societies with at least suspension of amity, for daring to be more obedient to government than themselves, is a degree of insolence, which not only deserves to be punished, but of which the punishment is loudly demanded by the order of life, and the peace of nations.

Yet there has risen up, in the face of the publick, men who, by whatever corruptions or whatever infatuation, have undertaken to defend the Americans, endeavour to shelter them from resentment, and propose reconciliation without submission.

As political diseases are naturally contagious, let it be supposed for a moment that Cornwall, seized with the Philadelphian frenzy, may resolve to separate itself from the general system of the English constitution, and judge of its own rights in its own parliament. A Congress might then meet at Truro, and address the other counties in a style not unlike the language of the American patriots.

“Friends and Fellow-subjects,

“We the delegates of the several towns and parishes of Cornwall, assembled to deliberate on our own state and that of our constituents, having, after serious debate and calm consideration, settled the scheme of our future conduct, hold it necessary to declare in this publick manner, the resolutions which we think ourselves entitled to form by the immutable laws of Nature, and the unalienable rights of reasonable Beings, and into which we have been at last compelled by grievances and oppressions, long endured by us in patient silence, not because we did not feel, or could not remove them, but because we were unwilling to give disturbance to a settled government, and hoped that others would in time find like ourselves their true interest and their original powers, and all co-operate to universal happiness.

“But since having long indulged the pleasing expectation, we find general discontent, not likely to increase, or not likely to end in general defection, we resolve to erect alone the standard of liberty.

“Know then, that you are no longer to consider Cornwall as an English county, visited by English judges, receiving law from an English Parliament or included in any general taxation of the kingdom; but as a state distinct and independent, governed by its own institutions, administered by its own magistrates, and exempt from any tax or tribute but such as we shall impose upon ourselves.

“We are the acknowledged descendants of the earliest inhabitants of Britain, of men who took possession of the island desolate and waste, and therefore open to the first occupants. Of this descent, our language is a sufficient proof, which, not quite a century ago, was different to yours.

“Such are the Cornishmen; but who are you? Who but the unauthorized and lawless children of intruders, invaders and oppressors? Who but the transmitters of wrong, the inheritors of robbery? In claiming independence we claim but little. We might require you to depart from a land which you possess by usurpation, and to restore all that you have taken from us.

“Independence is the gift of Nature, bestowed impartially on all her sons; no man is born the master of another. Every Cornishman is a freeman, for we have never resigned the rights of humanity; and he can only be thought free, who is not governed but by his own consent.

“You may urge that the present system of government has descended through many ages, and that we have a larger part in the representation of the kingdom than any other county.

“All this is true, but it is neither cogent nor persuasive. We look to the original of things. Our union with the English counties was either compelled by force, or settled by compact.

“That which was made by violence, may by violence be broken. If we were treated as a conquered people, our rights might be obscured, but could never be extinguished. The sword can give nothing but power, which a sharper sword can take away.

“If our union was by compact, whom could the compact bind but those that concurred in the stipulations? We gave our ancestors no commission to settle the terms of future existence. They might be cowards that were frightened, or blockheads that were cheated; but whatever they were, they could contract only for themselves. What they could establish, we can annul.
[TGG highlighting]

“Against our present form of government it shall stand in the place of all argument, that we do not like it. While we are governed as we do not like, where is our liberty? We do not like taxes, we will therefore not be taxed; we do not like your laws, and we will not obey them.

“The taxes laid by our representatives are laid, you tell us, by our own consent; but we will no longer consent to be represented. Our number of legislators was originally a burden imposed upon us by English tyranny, and ought then to have been refused: if it be now considered as a disproportionate advantage, there can be no reason for complaining that we resign it.

“We shall therefore form a Senate of our own, under a President whom the King shall nominate, but whose authority we will limit, by adjusting his salary to his merit. We will not with-hold a proper share of contribution to the necessary expence of lawful government, but we will decide for ourselves what share is proper, what expence is necessary, and what government is lawful.

“Till the authority of our counsel is acknowledged, and we are proclaimed independent and unaccountable, we will, after the tenth day of September, keep our Tin in our own hands: you can be supplied from no place and must therefore comply at last, or be poisoned with the copper of your own kitchens.

“If any Cornishman shall refuse his name to this just and laudable association, he shall be tumbled from St. Michael’s Mount, or buried alive in a tin-mine; and if any emissary shall be found seducing Cornishmen to their former state, he shall be smeared with tar, and rolled in feathers, and chased with dogs out of our dominions.

From the Cornish Congress at Truro!
Of this memorial what could be said but that it was written in jest, or written by a madman? Yet I know not whether the warmest admirers of Pennsylvanian eloquence can find any argument in the Addresses of the Congress, that is not with greater strength urged by the Cornishman. [TGG highlighting]

The argument of the irregular troops of controversy, stripped of its colours, and turned out naked to view, is no more than this. Liberty is the birthright of man, and where obedience is compelled, there is no Liberty. The answer is equally simple. Government is necessary to man, and where obedience is not compelled, there is no government.

If the subject refuses to obey, it is the duty of authority to use compulsion. Society cannot submit but by some power; first of making laws, and then of enforcing them.

To one of the threats hissed out by the Congress, I have put nothing similar into the Cornish proclamation; because it is too foolish for buffoonery, and too wild for madness. If we do not withhold our King and his parliament from taxing them, they will cross the Atlantick and enslave us
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE! -
They declare their Cornishness with pride
Whilst oblivious to our genocide
That England imposes
With smiles and Red Roses
Where the innocents, so gullibly, reside.


Rosko
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Rosko » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:13 pm

“Know then, that you are no longer to consider Cornwall as an English county, visited by English judges, receiving law from an English Parliament or included in any general taxation of the kingdom; but as a state distinct and independent, governed by its own institutions, administered by its own magistrates, and exempt from any tax or tribute but such as we shall impose upon ourselves.
Egg zac lee... Well said, Pard!

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TGG
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by TGG » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:11 am

:) :) 8-)
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE! -
They declare their Cornishness with pride
Whilst oblivious to our genocide
That England imposes
With smiles and Red Roses
Where the innocents, so gullibly, reside.


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Marhak
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Marhak » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:28 am

I find it remarkable that Dr Johnson had such a grasp of the facts concerning Cornwall.

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TGG
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by TGG » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:53 am


A. L. Rowse, in his chapter on the subject in his "The Little Land of Cornwall", considered that he would have gained his knowledge of Cornwall from his friend James Boswell. The latter, in 1791, also writing a biography of Johnson.

The highlighted bits in the above quote reveal a profound perception of Cornwall, that is echoed in Burke's speech to the Westminster Parliament in 1780.

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why!
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE! -
They declare their Cornishness with pride
Whilst oblivious to our genocide
That England imposes
With smiles and Red Roses
Where the innocents, so gullibly, reside.


Rosko
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Rosko » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:29 pm

Cornwall in the 21st Century (as in previous centuries) needs England as much as America, Jersey orAustralia/NZ, for that matter.
It's not been a case of Cornwall being backwards, and more a case of England holding Cornwall back, as well as asset stripping the Duchy, for how many years, I wonder? London transport/underground alone, has been subsidised by Cornish tax payers for how many years?

Meanwhile Duke Charles continues plundering the Duchy's coffers and flogging 'our' best farmland to greedy, unethical, and quite frankly, corrupt developers....

Let's remove the shackles and regain our freedom and birthright, before we join the long list of nations existing only as quaint old stories in a few, highly selective history books (probably not English ones)...

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factotum
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by factotum » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:37 am

TK, no I meant 'decentralised' as in not all located on a single campus but using many often existing buildings etc. With modern means of communication and information-sharing the mediaeval model of the university centered on a library of physical books is obsolete.

Btw. how did you know RR was my favourite group?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsr7e60_ ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ3LUYx3 ... playnext=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaFUfdJq ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6M48vtk ... re=related

Sorry, got carried away ...

Rosko
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Rosko » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:09 pm

So when can we expect the Stannators to veto Westminster, fearlessly, forcefully and legally, putting a final nail in the coffin of this Ducal constitutional farce that we live in?

For Prince Charles, it's a case of two countries, three systems, and everything I can get my filthy paws on...

Time for a third Royal Charles to lose a head, after his years of abuse of power, and that's before he's even made it to the English throne...

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factotum
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by factotum » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:31 am

Rosko, I think he lost his head years ago! He's probably Lord of the Isles too, he has titles as long as his arm, but I think only in Cornwall is he above the law ...

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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Fulub-le-Breton » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:17 pm

So when can we expect the Stannators to veto Westminster, fearlessly, forcefully and legally, putting a final nail in the coffin of this Ducal constitutional farce that we live in?
Rosko I've been involved, on and off, in the Cornish movement now since 2000 and I've heard this kind of thing time and time again.

How do you expect them to do that exactly? The current Stannary Parliament can veto whatever it likes and pronounce upon any issue. Them problem is that they are completely ignore by the UK state and its agents in Cornwall who continue as normal.

Its rather like me deciding that my individual sovereignty out ways that of the French state so I decide in my house to veto the French constitution. I draw up the veto and send it off to government who duly ignore me and NOTHING changes.

Now before anybody attacks me I know that there are legal constitution supports for our Stannary Parliament and Duchy status but sadly they are also completely ignore by Westminster.

The issue has to be forced. The Stannary can veto all the laws it likes but they'll be ignored until enough Cornish people start to transgress the UK laws the Stannary has vetoed. UK taxes for example.

We can claim a special constitutional status all we like but until we have the money for a legal challenge, or are prepared to us other means, or enough Cornish simply stand up and demand it back, then we will be ignored.

The Cornish today don't seem to be prepared to do any of the above at the moment, so call on the Stannary to veto what ever you like but until enough residents of the Duchy recognise the Stannary as the legtimate government of Cornwall then it will be pissing in the wind.

Trevorpen
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by Trevorpen » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:13 am

The current Stannary Parliament can veto whatever it likes and pronounce upon any issue.
F-l-B what I have never had answered for me on these discussion forums over the years is Where is this Stannary Parliament and whom are its elected members? You imply there is one, so perhaps you can throw some light upon this.

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capten
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Re: Duchy, Stannary and the Veto!

Post by capten » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:38 am

Why on earth would I look to the Stannary Parliament to protect mine and Cornwall's interests? I don't know who they are, who put them in their position, how many of them there are, how they got elected, how they conduct their business, or how to hold them to account. If they want me to take notice then they need to start acting like a real representative assembly and communicate with the people.

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