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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:12 pm
by Morgarrow
Looking at the Channel 4 "The Big Roman Dig" I noticed it said, "The Romans first came to England in 55BC but it wasn't until nearly 100 years after this that they really invaded."

Am I wrong in thinking England didn't exist then?? Isn't this the kind of sloppy lazy terms used by the media and often historians when talking on TV or radio that drives you mad???!!! It doesn't mean anything either - even if they're talking/writing in terms of England currently, are they really meaning just England or again being lazy and sloppy and mean Britain or the British Isles?

I was also watching the Channel 4 Pioneer House the series and explores the history behind the project, quote " It takes you back to the early 17th century, and reveals why the original pioneers left England." Of course they didn't leave from anywhere else in Britain did they (rhetorical). This weeks they had a visit from some "Native Americans" played my real "Native Americans" who made it quite clear to those acting as pioneers for the series that they still felt strongly about the way their land was taken from them by the original pioneers.

The programme write up suggests the USA was built on oppression of the native peoples who suffered a disintegration of their culture, if not by death due to the spread of disease, through the introduction of alcohol and the teaching European ways, especially Christianity [ and the US worry about Islam?]. Secondly it was built on slavery and racial segregation when they decided to kidnap African people from their homeland and brutalize them into doing work they didn't want to do. Really the 4th of July is nothing to celebrate about, but marked a very dark period for many of the ancestors of US citizens .

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:23 pm
by Masterclass
I think using the word 'England' makes it easier for people to understand which geographical area is being talked about.

I saw the last half of the final episode of 'Pioneer House' and thought it looked quite interesting.

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:00 pm
by Masterclass

What are you saying that most people don't know where the British Isles are?
Actually, I suppose the word England is easier to comprehend for those with a more neanderthal education.

No, you get me wrong.

For the more geographically challenged 'England' implies the bottom right hand bit of the map, with the Welsh and Scottish bits not included. If one were to ask Mr (or Mrs) Average where, I dunno, Berkshire was on a map, I think the majority would be hard pushed to do it. So by using 'England' as a geographic point for reference it's probably easier for them to visualise the location being discussed, if you see what I mean.

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:07 pm
by Abednego
When we were in deepest rural Turkey and trying to get to our money we said (in English of course, my Turkish doesn't stretch far at all) we were from the UK. Blank looks. We tried Britain. More blank looks. Then we said England: instant smiles, comprehension, and money.

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:28 pm
by Fulub-le-Breton
A clear result of the misrepresentation of our state abroad.
What is more interesting however after having travelled a lot is the the number of peoples you meet who are in the same position, denied and disenfranchised by an uncaring ruling group.

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:00 pm
by Abednego
We were very amused and thought it a telling commentary by real people on attempts to deny England. Of course we may owe recognition of England to our footballers.

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:05 pm
by Fulub-le-Breton

a telling commentary by real people


No one would try and deny england it is just england that wishes to deny us.

You sound rather like someone who equated USSR with Russia, i think you need to travel a bit more.

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:10 am
by Pfishwick

Please explain what you mean when you say "it is just England that wishes to deny us"


Patrick, Lancastrian

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:28 am
by Abednego
If, when abroad, I am asked where I'm from or what I am, I always say England and English and am always understood.

But then I say chemist not pharmacist.

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:07 am
by Fulub-le-Breton
Yes i am sure your understood but if you make the effort to explain, use their language and have a longer discussion you will find that people are actually quite clever. You will also discover that lots of people actually belong to a minority of some sort as well. A Kurd will say Turk for an easy life but probably not when you get to know him or her a little better, beyond buying souvenirs that is.
I always think its great when i discover the world is more complex than first thought.

pfishwick; i have never once in my life tried to deny the English exist as a people, on more occasions than i can remember i have encountered English folk who have tried to deny my right to describe myself as Cornish instead of English. The Cornish have fought an up hill struggle to be allowed to record themselves as Cornish and it is still not a done deal.

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:24 am
by Masterclass

You're a bit patronising at times, aren't you?