HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Discussion about what\'s going on outside of Cornwall
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factotum
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by factotum » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:55 am

Yes, I've now looked at the whole thing, skimmed through it at least. It's one of those things that given good will and a positive attitude to the language, will succeed, but without good will towards the language will simply be a extra bureaucratic burden. It feels a bit like overkill to me. If people are generally well disposed towards the language most of it would surely be unnecessary, and if they're not I can't really see it working. Basically everything from government depts down to the Home for Stray Cats has to take time off from its real business to draw up a Plan for introducing Welsh, and that has to be submitted and approved, revised etc etc, endless fun for pen-pushers for years to come.

I really don't know what to make of this sort of thing. On the one hand I'm obviously pro-Welsh, but on the other I'm instinctively opposed to coercion, especially from government. Making something compulsory is surely inviting a backlash? I mean to take the case in point, if almost all the staff are Welsh-speaking, and insist on speaking Welsh while they work what can management really do? Sack them all and gain the emnity of the local community? Nor is it clear if this new legislation would even help since it seems to be mainly aimed at bodies that either receive public money or interface with the public. If it can regulate the language used in a private domain (back kitchen of a hotel) where do we stop? Would it still be legal for Tim to speak Cornish with his family for example?

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factotum
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by factotum » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:57 am


carrek
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by carrek » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:11 pm

factotum wrote:Cornwall ought to be part of Wales ... maybe?
No. Cornwall and Wales are separate nations.

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factotum
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by factotum » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:55 pm

'Cus we wuz divided and ruled by the English c600 ce. Although Wales itself was really never really unified under native rule. One might say that modern 'Wales' as a geographic territory is an English creation. But more seriously would not most of the policies of the Welsh Assembly Government be beneficial if applied to Cornwall? And it would be a way of working towards greater devolution by an indirect route. The attempt to convince the English that we are a nation has failed to have much impact. They clearly have some massive psychological block which prevents them accepting the idea. It strikes them as a joke, like Isle of Wight Nationalists or Home Rule for Rutland etc. So rather than continually bash your head against a brick wall, why not seek creative ways around it?

Ah, heid bangers the lot of you!

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factotum
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by factotum » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:56 pm

Just thought, we could maybe swap with Monmouthshire/Gwent since they appear to want to be English ;-)

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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by carrek » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:07 pm

factotum wrote:'Cus we wuz divided and ruled by the English c600 ce. Although Wales itself was really never really unified under native rule. One might say that modern 'Wales' as a geographic territory is an English creation. But more seriously would not most of the policies of the Welsh Assembly Government be beneficial if applied to Cornwall? And it would be a way of working towards greater devolution by an indirect route. The attempt to convince the English that we are a nation has failed to have much impact. They clearly have some massive psychological block which prevents them accepting the idea. It strikes them as a joke, like Isle of Wight Nationalists or Home Rule for Rutland etc. So rather than continually bash your head against a brick wall, why not seek creative ways around it?

Ah, heid bangers the lot of you!
So you think the best way to get around the uphill battle that is convincing the English that Cornwall is a nation, is to convince them to give Cornwall to Wales? And you want the Cornish people to agree to this? What planet are you living on?
Last edited by carrek on Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Marhak
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by Marhak » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:12 pm

It's only the English settlers in Monmouthshire/Gwent who want that. No, sod 'em. Englnd has claimed more than enough for itself as it is.

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Anselm
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by Anselm » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:28 pm

@Factotum - Thanks for acting as Devil's Advocate. As you so wittily demonstrate, this kind of petty provincial bigotry has no case that doesn't collapse immediately. Sorry I'm a bit tied up at the moment - will get back to you.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
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Cornish Pirates

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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by Cormorant » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:42 pm

kbcl1 wrote:NEWS FROM THE CELTIC LEAGUE

HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

The issue has provoked considerable anger in Wales and a facebook site set up to express dissatisfaction over the issue already has several thousand members:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=gro ... 8597543606

Celtic League members are urged to lend their support.

J B Moffatt (Mr)
Director of Information
Celtic League

18/04/11

The Celtic League has branches in the six Celtic Countries. It works
to promote cooperation between these countries and campaigns on a
broad range of political, cultural and environmental matters. It highlights
human rights abuse, monitors all military activity and focuses on
socio-economic issues.

TEL (UK)01624 877918 MOBILE (UK)07624 491609

Internet site at:

http://celticleague.net
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celtic_league/
Strange...

Complaints about the veracity of "I Hate Cornwall" Face-book on one thread and then this?

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Anselm
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by Anselm » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:52 am

@Factotum Sorry this has to be so bitty - please bear with me!
As you highlight, goodwill is never enough. Otherwise, the entire criminal law were best repealed. The law indicates what kind of conduct is unacceptable, and prescribes sanctions. The mischief addressed here is the body of historic consequence to the provision of the Act of Union 1536 that the Welsh language be 'utterly extirped', and that the only language of administration be English. (At that time, English shared that domain in England with Latin and French!)
To be continued ...
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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factotum
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by factotum » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:37 am

If there are (or were) legal obstructions to the use of Welsh, then clearly they can only be removed by changes to the law. However I wonder (that is I'm quite uncertain) whether it is right to compel the use of Welsh where no one wants it, especially if all that results is tokenism. To give a slightly silly example, there is an area to the east of Wrexham which is part of the Cheshire plain and looks and feels just about as English as it gets, but which for whatever reason happens to fall on the Welsh side of the line. You know when you've crossed the line because on every bend in the road ARAF has been painted alongside SLOW. How does this help anyone? How many extra man-hour does it take to maintain these and similar signs/markings? Wouldn't the money be better spent strengthening Welsh in its heartlands, or perhaps in marginal areas, rather than tokenism in thoroughly English-speaking regions?

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Marhak
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by Marhak » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:59 pm

Because if you don't do what has been done, then the whole thing gets progressively eroded from the edges inwards until nothing's left. Kernow's bilingual signs start from the Tamar; Cymru's should start from the very line of its border, too, which can only help the heartlands to spread further outward. Those outer regions might well be thoroughly English-speaking today, but who's to tell what their future holds? The visual use of Welsh can only be positive for the language, and encourage more people to start learning it. If your advice is taken, Keith, those places will remain thoroughly English speaking for evermore.

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factotum
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by factotum » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:14 pm

Well all of England was Welsh speaking before the Saxons arrived, and the present political boundary makes neither linguistic nor geographical sense in many places. When the lines were drawn they were just county boundaries, so it was just about which County hall you complained to if the road needed mending etc. There are or at least were other places where the Welsh-speaking population extended over into England. And a whole slice of Western Herefordshire that was historically Welsh where all the place names are Welsh in English spelling, very like Cornwall. At least the Tamar is a clear and definite line on the ground, although the northern boundary might equally be drawn north or south of the present line. Where the small stream that marks the line runs across the beach you can jump over it --- I have. In any case there is no real parallel with Wales since there are no Cornish speaking communities, no Cornish language legislation and out in the 'real world' no recognition of Cornwall as anything more than an English county. I don't like that any more than you do, but unfortunately no one in power gives a shit what we think.

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Marhak
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by Marhak » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:30 pm

The challenge is to make 'em give a shit.

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Anselm
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Re: HOTEL WELSH LANGUAGE BAN SPARKS ANGER

Post by Anselm » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:37 pm

In effect, the Act of Union delegitimized anything done in Welsh, except to the extent that the State tolerated it. Historically, that has been the major premise of any ban on the use of Welsh, whether within or without the framework of the legal and administrative system. The campaigns of the twentieth century have been for equal status, with anything done in the one language having like effect to anything done in the other. We're not quite there yet ... but the journey continues.

More to follow ...
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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