Post SWF apocalypse

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
Grum
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Post by Grum » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:27 am

What happens after somebody eventually picks one then?

And does the version have any real bearing on these next steps, being as it would presumably change with time and use like most living languages, unless it is going to be a 'frozen' one like Latin?

And does anyone know if there is a bet on at the bookies for the outcome?

FlammNew
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Post by FlammNew » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:53 am

Interesting topic... :-) My guess is that the supporters of whatever's chosen will go with it; a proportion of everyone else will go with it; some people will stick with what they know because they can't or don't want to learn a new system; and the hardline anti-brigade will carry on shouting against it and doing their own thing. I can't see it totally unifying Cornish speakers.

You are right about the language developing once the SWF has been released. It will develop and dialects will arise. That is why bleating on and on about uncertain 400-year-old pronunciations is futile and a non-argument. The language will evolve in ways the revivers cannot forsee.

Grum
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Post by Grum » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:12 am

But even beyond that - will the language be part of a curriculum, or a political stepping stone in european courts or just an official version with plans to integrate it into the infrastructure of Cornwall, like roadsigns etc?

And seriously, surely one of you guys has put a bet on? If you don't, I will and tell y'all which way William Hill think the wind is blowing :-)

FlammNew
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Post by FlammNew » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:20 am

Hopefully it will be all three, and more.

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Coady
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Post by Coady » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:55 am

Am I being uncharitable if I suspect that some of the enthusiasts rather want to cling on to 'their' version and keep it elite, obscure and exclusive?

Are there 'adherents' who secretly dread Cornish being an everyday common or garden language, used casually and thoughtlessly by large numbers of people??

I'm probably just being paranoid. I must get out more.
We live in interesting times!

FlammNew
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Post by FlammNew » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:47 pm

Yep, hence the "THIS is how you will pronounce this word, anything else isn't proper Cornish" approach. Kemmyn is, in that respect, more relaxed in its approach. Personally I welcome the day when the language community is extensive enough for natural development to drive things and the academics become observers instead of drivers.

Grum
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Post by Grum » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:26 am

That would be fun, but you'd need a lot of initiative to make it mainstream in the interim.

Any thoughts on how this should be approached?

Laghyades
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Post by Laghyades » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:18 am

"Personally I welcome the day when the language community is extensive enough for natural development to drive things and the academics become observers instead of drivers."

I would have to say that, when academics aren't around, I'd swear sometimes that I'm hearing this very thing on a small scale. People using novel constructions that really skirt the edge of 'Received Kernewek", but are DAMN good ways of putting things. Which is the way things should be. If the language community likes it, it will prosper, if not, it will be still-born. The key, as I said, seems to be the absence of the Ueber-speakers of the language, who's presence sometimes has a stifling effect on innovation.


FlammNew
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Post by FlammNew » Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:58 am


Laghyades said:
People using novel constructions that really skirt the edge of 'Received Kernewek", but are DAMN good ways of putting things. Which is the way things should be. If the language community likes it, it will prosper, if not, it will be still-born. The key, as I said, seems to be the absence of the Ueber-speakers of the language, who's presence sometimes has a stifling effect on innovation.



You're right. In that respect, the language is developing faster than the proscribed grammar which people are taught, which is great - it means that people are using Kernewek as a living language, not as an academic exercise. When the grammarians look to the people to determine how the language is used, not 400-year-old texts, then we will be freed up to make Cornish a vibrant language for the future, that people will enjoy using. Bywnans Ke, for example, is as gripping as watching paint dry and really must not be used as a model for teaching Cornish in the 21st Century - we need modern, lively Cornish with car chases and internet scams and sex scenes. Too much of today's published Cornish is old-fashioned, staid and boring.

Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:43 pm

Point for discussion. If you're going to write exactly the same sort of stuff in Cornish as you get in English, then why bother? No insult to the creative ability of the Cornish, but we're a small nation and unlikely to turn up many world-class writers, so what's the point in turning out second rate American fiction (or whatever) in Kernewek, given that we can all read English already? :evil:

Morvyl
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Post by Morvyl » Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:50 pm


FlammNew said:
Yep, hence the "THIS is how you will pronounce this word, anything else isn't proper Cornish" approach. Kemmyn is, in that respect, more relaxed in its approach.



FlammNew,
Where does KK take that approach. It was always my impression that KK had very specific rues as to how Cornish pronunciation is to be derived from the spelling. I don't see anything particularly 'relaxed' in its approach.

Grum
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Post by Grum » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:14 pm

Who cares?

Millions of threads for that - this is about after one has been chosen, whatever version it may be.

Pokorny
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Post by Pokorny » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:51 pm


morvran said:
Point for discussion. If you're going to write exactly the same sort of stuff in Cornish as you get in English, then why bother? No insult to the creative ability of the Cornish, but we're a small nation and unlikely to turn up many world-class writers, so what's the point in turning out second rate American fiction (or whatever) in Kernewek, given that we can all read English already? :evil:




Isn't the point of the Revival to create a community of people for whom Cornish is the language of choice and who will therefore prefer to read everything, including their second rate fiction in Cornish, not English?
Most 20th century Irish governments took the point of view that Irish was to be the medium of expression for religious literature and conservative, somewhat romanticised 'Celtic' cultural domains only. They've succeeded in killing off what was left of the language. If Cornish fails to enter the domain of popular (Americanised if you will) 21st century culture, then it risks being confined to the Gorseth and similar occasions.

FlammNew
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Post by FlammNew » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:53 pm


morvran said:
Point for discussion. If you're going to write exactly the same sort of stuff in Cornish as you get in English, then why bother? No insult to the creative ability of the Cornish, but we're a small nation and unlikely to turn up many world-class writers, so what's the point in turning out second rate American fiction (or whatever) in Kernewek, given that we can all read English already? :evil:




There's even less point in turning out second rate 400-year-old style fiction. There is no fiction written in any version of Kernewek which appeals to me, "Hwedhlow Euthekter" came closest for its originality. Too much modern Kernewek is safe and homely and won't upset anybody, but I want more gutsy stuff. I want to be reading a range of modern fiction in a variety of genres, not "Hwoer Tamsin" for the rest of my life. "Orvil an Morvil goes Ape on Mescaline" has got to be more interesting... :lol:

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