Alys in Pow an Anethow in Kernowek - Alices Adventures in Wonderland in Cornish

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Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:22 pm


Evertype said:
[quote=morvran]I was asked to produce the translations you refer to. I did another one which the KK lot never got round to publishing, so I agreed to it going out in UC, at Ray Chubb's request. I have not been asked to do anything since, and since there are many people far more skilled, why should I?

I'd be delighted to publish your work, Keith, if you'd consent to it being published in KS. :-)


Works in Cornish by ME : ZERO
ditto by Eddie : ZERO

I'm not a translator. Eddie has spoken for himself.[/quote]

Thank you for your kind offer. Unfortunately the condition would defeat the object of anything I'm ever likely to want to publish. I'm also quite capable of sticking a nicely laid out pdf on the web, anytime I have something to publish. In the present silly written climate it would just be pearls before swine.

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:58 pm


marhak said:
I'm often pulled up by Keith and his mates for not being as orally fluent as I might be...

...Might I suggest that the picture painted of me by Keith and his colleagues (such as Pawl, Pieter and Penny...


No, you may not.

Because you are lying when you suggest that I have painted such a picture.

I have never mentioned or commented on your oral competence.

Not once.

I can't even leave this place for a few days - let alone a few weeks - before marhak's vivid imagination and habit of making baseless accusations present themselves as cause for me to return.

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Eddie-C
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Post by Eddie-C » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:06 pm

Hi, Pete! Back so soon?

We hardly had a chance to miss you properly.

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:54 pm

Oh, yes you have "Pieter" - under your real name.

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:57 pm

Keith's dismissal of "Alice in Wonderland" speaks volumes about Keith. However worthless he believes it to be, it has captivated generations around the entire world, and continues to do. Even Hollywood (Disney) decided it was important and famous enough to be made into one of their unforgettable animation movies.

Just look at the reaction on this forum - "Alys" has only been out for a week or so, and it's generated five pages here and another couple on a different thread.





edited by: marhak, Jan 24, 2009 - 02:59 PM

Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:19 pm

Sorry, I can't see personally see that it has great literary merit. But more to the point, since the book is mainly English word play and parodies of English poetry (well known no doubt at the time), I am at a complete loss to understand why this should be chosen for translation to Cornish, given that all those capable of reading the translation could simply read the original? Why not translate something most of us couldn't read in the original -- something from Irish, or Ancient Greek for that matter?

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:05 pm

Lots of people do enjoy Alice, and have for generations, all over the world. One of the joys of translating it, or reading it in translation, however, is the word-play. Some puns can't be translated—but a good translator finds other ones. And Nicholas has done a splendid job of it!

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Eddie-C
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Post by Eddie-C » Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:21 pm

-- Keith Bailey doesn't like 'Alice', therefore 'Alice' is worthless.
-- Keith Bailey disapproves of translations from English into Cornish, therefore they're worthless.
-- Keith Bailey dislikes all forms of Cornish apart from KK, therefore . . .
-- Ditto NJAW, M.E., Agan Tavas, MAGA, the SWF, UC, UCR, RLC, anyone from Taunton, etc etc . . .

Is there a wee pattern visible there, perhaps? It sure sounds like the sort of thing I used to hear from my kids when they were very young; you know; "I don't like that; it's poo!"

Most children outgrow such solipsism, but evidently not all manage to!

Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:43 pm


Evertype said:
Lots of people do enjoy Alice, and have for generations, all over the world. One of the joys of translating it, or reading it in translation, however, is the word-play. Some puns can't be translated—but a good translator finds other ones. And Nicholas has done a splendid job of it!




I'm inclined to agree that he's done a good job. The question is was that particular job worth doing in the first place. I rather think not, but that of course is my opinion -- to which I'm perfectly entitled.

Of course it's annoying that you can put out nice books whereas our lot can't be bothered -- I just think its a shame that this talent isn't harnessed to producing books that might actually be of some use to the Revival, rather than curiosities for the collectors' market.

However it's clear that your aim is not to assist the language revival, but to score political points in your campaign to perpetuate and deepen the split in the movement. An aim in which, due to total political ineptitude on our side, you may very well succeed.




edited by: morvran, Jan 24, 2009 - 05:44 PM

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Taran
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Post by Taran » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:34 pm

This is but one book, morvran. Hopefully we will see more. More from everyone would be good, but every one we get is worthwhile. I fail to see why this 'Alys' is more worthless than Ray's though - I infer that from your posts because you haven't slighted Ray's version. OK, so its been done once. There are significant differences in the translations and the value here is in showing the breadth of Cornish's ability to render a story. Also in this case it is a good chance for all to see a direct comparison of one orthography for another. KK compared to KS.

OK, so this version may make goky's eyes bleed because of all the spiky diacritics scratching at his retinas, but he is a special case!

Yes we need more publications, and I very much hope to see more forthcoming soon, be it original works, translations of works in other languages or new versions of old works.

I understand your concerns about English wordplay, but that has not devalued any of the other international translations, why should it be any worse for Cornish?



edited by: Taran, Jan 24, 2009 - 06:35 PM

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:37 pm


morvran said:
[quote=Evertype]Some puns can't be translated—but a good translator finds other ones. And Nicholas has done a splendid job of it!

I'm inclined to agree that he's done a good job.[/quote]Nice of you to say so. Perhaps you'd like to get a copy and see. I'm sure you enjoy a good pub. His poetry is splendid, too. Most of it is in the Victorian sing-song of the original, but one poem uses a traditional Cornish metre.


Of course it's annoying that you can put out nice books whereas our lot can't be bothered

I'm sorry you're annoyed by my publication. I do promise much more, however. :-)


-- I just think its a shame that this talent isn't harnessed to producing books that might actually be of some use to the Revival, rather than curiosities for the collectors' market.

You're entitled to think that the content of the book is uninteresting, but just because you may not wish to read Alice in Cornish does not mean that other Revivalists will not wish to.


However it's clear that your aim is not to assist the language revival,

What a splendid example of begrudgery.


but to score political points

Actually my aim is to sell some well-typeset books in good Cornish.


in your campaign to perpetuate and deepen the split in the movement.

I repudiate this lie of yours. I have lamented the split in the movement, in print since 1999 in my review in Cornish Studies 7 and again in 2000 (in my preface to the UCR dictionary). It isn't my fault that some ideologues who favoured a "phonemic" spelling based on reconstruction rather than the evidence of the traditional texts split the Revival. Yes, it is my view that KK caused the split. It was a new element introduced into an un-split Revival, and as we have seen it failed to meet some criteria considered important by many Revivalists (whether you like that fact or not). I proposed that we give up UC, RLC, KK, and UCR in favour of a Fifth Form. I hoped for an Orthography Congress of linguists; we had the AHG process instead, though the resulting SWF is something that only needs some minor corrections. It's a lie for you to say that I wish to perpetuate the split. I accept the SWF, but feel that it is important to publish literature in an improved form without ambiguities and errors. I have given up UCR, my previously preferred orthography completely. It is you, who will not give up KK, who are the perpetuator of the split.


An aim in which, due to total political ineptitude on our side, you may very well succeed.

A vynta bò ’ny vynta jy kemeres radn i’n dauns,
Osta sur na vydnys dones rag kemeres radn i’n dauns?”

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:37 pm


pietercharles said:
I have never mentioned or commented on your oral competence.
Not once.



marhak said:
Oh, yes you have "Pieter" - under your real name.


Give details, marhak.

You will not be able to because the accusation is a downright lie.

This is just more disgraceful behaviour from marhak, chairman of Agan Tavas.

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:51 pm

When I see some (factual) details from you, coward.

Coward? Yes. Because you have just defamed me while hiding behind a pseudonym. That creates a problem. For you.

Do it to my face. If you dare. If you have a spine instead of a yellow streak.

Who are the splitters. the Kesva did what it did in 1987. The same year as the major split occurred. The Agan Tavas expansion you refer to, which I see from the minutes, was totally within the terms of its constitution and fully minuted (unlike the Kesva's 1987 meeting) occurred two years later. So just how did that have anything to do with the split?

It didn't have anything to do with it. I know it, you know it, and a great many other people know it.

In any case, it was 20+ years ago. I am working for the future, not the past. Your inflammatory posts merely seek to deepen the divisions, not heal them. So who is your paymaster?

I don't think the word "disgrace" applies to me. I have worked for Cornwall all my life - since the age of 8. It cost me a career and a sizeable portion of my pension rights. What have you sacrificed or even done? Except stir.



edited by: marhak, Jan 24, 2009 - 09:53 PM

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:51 pm

He won't be able to "give details" because you made the comments under your real name, but you won't admit your real name here.

Admit your real name here, and see what Craig says. It's up to you.

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:07 am


Evertype said:
He won't be able to "give details" because you made the comments under your
real name


Not so.

Marhak can reveal my real name - he has, after all, done it often enough before - and
attempt to give details of the unfounded accusation he made.

He won't be able to, because I have never commented on his oral competence in Cornish. Not here nor anywhere else. Never.

The accusation he made is a lie.

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