Lyver Pejadow rag Kenyver Jorna - Cornish Daily Prayer

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
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Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:15 pm


Evertype said:
The backbone of the Revival is Unified Cornish, warts and all. Jenner was a better linguist than Nance (not Nance's fault), and deserves study.

If it hadn't been for them, you'd have no Revival at all.



If you believe that the Revival = UC, then why are you assisting Dr. Williams et al. in their (vain) attempts over the past c12 years to overthrow that system? Remember UC was conceived as perfect in itself and once codified, independent of the historical Cornish which it was based upon it. That is it was intended to last for 1,000 years, presumably unchanged. If like PAS Pool you think UC was delivered on tablets of stone, then the presumption is that it cannot be altered for 1,000 years, regardless of any future research, discoveries etc. That was, and possibly still is, it's one great virtue -- absolute solid stability.

OTOH, the downside of this view is that Revived Cornish is a modern creation and not in any sense a continuation of Historical Cornish. If you take this view you have to accept that Revived Cornish is just "Cornic", a "Made-up Language". The work of a few hobbists, and not a worthy subject for serious academic interest. This is still very much the view in academia. Researchers are warned to give Revived Cornish a wide berth, and claims that the language is no longer dead, receive the patronising reply that although there are people who claim to speak Cornish they in fact do not. The speak a modern conlang, etc. etc.

Do you share this view?

CowethasPeranSans
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Post by CowethasPeranSans » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:21 pm


Goky: then they should be in the SWF not Everson's concoction


We cannot produce anything unless skilled people come forward with offers to help. Mr Everson and Professor Williams have been of great help to us for which we are extremely grateful, and we hope Goky will prove to be of help too.

We look forward to hearing from him as we have other projects in the pipeline.



edited by: CowethasPeranSans, Apr 11, 2009 - 10:21 PM

Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:35 pm


truru said:
[quote=morvran]Just thinking back to the introduction of KK, it wasn't sufficient for an outline report to be published and a decision taken to adopt it. What happened then was that people clamoured for materials, and those who were able, rallied around to produce them. The John Page grammar booklets were quickly converted, giving a lot of common words, irregular verbs etc. in the new spelling. A dictionary obviously took a while, but an extensive provisional wordlist soon came out, which allowed people to start writing in the system, which they did. The change was soon very visible.



It's only been 10 months. Add to the fact that in 1987 there was an old form, and a new form, so people in the revival had a clear choice to make. In 2009 there's an old form, an updated old form, a new form, a new form based on an old form and a new form that's a mixture of the other forms. Clearly the number of people working on materials for different forms is going to be less when they're split between 5+ forms instead of just 2. Plus I'd imagine a significant amount of people simply can't be bothered or have lost the will to make anything after the infighting of the past many years, something that probably wasn't a problem in 1987.edited by: truru, Apr 11, 2009 - 11:49 AM [/quote]


That, I should say is a very good reason to back the majority form, i.e. KK. Failure to do just that by the Partnership/Commission is exactly why the chaos you so describe has been allowed to fester. BTW most of the things I mentioned did in fact happen IIRC within a year of KK being accepted. There were also one or two beginners courses that were produced or converted very quickly. Once the decision had been made, not without much careful thought and consideration, the old system was just "legacy". Nearly everyone moved to the new system as quickly as was practical. There just hasn't been anything like that sort of support for any other system floated since, not for UCR, not for KS, not even for the SWF with Council funding behind it.

How can I put this plainly? Competent Cornish speakers really wanted to use KK. It was welcomed. It was used. It still is used. No one apart from their creators really wants to use the other 'new' forms, and most of those backing them (with a notable handful of exceptions) can't use them, because they are not competent Cornish speakers/writers. All they do is rant here in English. You must forgive me if I rant a little against them, they give an entirely false and unrepresentative impression of the language movement, and I believe that needs to be countered.

I say again. The 45% you refer to in the TAGA Survey includes many people who use Cornish less than once a year, etc. The figure to consider is "Frequent and Competent Users" (or whatever the wording was). Please look at the Report and see what criteria they set. They were very minimal.

Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:41 pm


CowethasPeranSans said:

Goky: then they should be in the SWF not Everson's concoction


We cannot produce anything unless skilled people come forward with offers to help. Mr Everson and Professor Williams have been of great help to us for which we are extremely grateful, and we hope Goky will prove to be of help too.

We look forward to hearing from him as we have other projects in the pipeline.



I wonder who else was approached? Was anyone invited to produce a version in UC? or KK? or any of the versions of the SWF?


Edit : I'm fairly sure there are any number of competent mainstream Cornish speakers in your society, which really does beg the question, why go to Ireland?




edited by: morvran, Apr 11, 2009 - 10:43 PM

Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:57 pm


gokyreloaded said:

Moreover, you haven't made any contribution to the Revival yourself. Is your excuse your own self-admitted idiocy, dha wockyneth dha honen?


yes and Eddie's contribution is making a total idiot of himself, I suppose he proves that even monkeys can try and learn Cornish if they tried hard enough.



Mar pleg, na wra disprisya agan kowetha vlewek. Fest moy nobyl yns agez Eddie. Dhe wir, del re beu leveryz, "ow kwelez Eddie owth assaya skrifa Kernewek yw porran kepar ha gwelez ki yn unn kerdhez war y dhiwarr a-dhelergh -- Nynz yw gwryz yn ta, mez marth a'gan beus dell yw gwryz vyth-oll!"




edited by: morvran, Apr 12, 2009 - 01:01 AM

CowethasPeranSans
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Post by CowethasPeranSans » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:04 pm


Morvan: I wonder who else was approached? Was anyone invited to produce a version in UC? or KK? or any of the versions of the SWF?

Edit : I'm fairly sure there are any number of competent mainstream Cornish speakers in your society, which really does beg the question, why go to Ireland?


We are only a small fellowship and do not presently have any members who are knowledgable enough to produce material of a high enough standard (we are primarily concerned with Celtic spirituality and eco-responsibility).

We put out an appeal well over six months ago now to all three main orthography agencies for help in producing in the SWF, but only got a response from within AT to produce in KS (close as damn it to SWF/T). Professor Williams was the only professional linguist available to us and it matters not where he lives, only that he was able and kindly willing to help people in their desire to pray and worship in Cornish. (In fact, it may be he is the only fully-professional linguist working in Cornish.)

We did approach a leading member of the Cornish Language Board suggesting they produce a KK version some time ago, but never heard back from him. It would be quite inappropriate to name him here.

The problem may be a lack of will on some linguists' part in producing material in KK, RLC, UC and the SWF, perhaps standing back and waiting to see what is likely to evolve eventually rather than waste any effort.

However, we feel it is better to get something usable into print than just speculating about maybe doing it one day. We are lucky in that the new prayer book is professionally produced and of a very high quality. It will consequently look a very credible resource on bookshop shelves, especially with an accompanying pronunciation CD.

There is a process of evolution going on: what orthography our future material will be in, we do not know, but it really depends on who is available to help and who engages with us.

Pask lowen!




edited by: CowethasPeranSans, Apr 12, 2009 - 12:38 AM

CowethasPeranSans
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Post by CowethasPeranSans » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:44 am

Could we maybe rise above the level of petty insults? Our language is an important matter.

Goky, we would like to produce material in the SWF. Are you willing to use your time more productively in helping us?

CowethasPeranSans
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Post by CowethasPeranSans » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:52 am

We'll have to take that as a (extremely unnecessarily rude) no. It is a shame to not make a productive use of your stated ability in the language. What is the point of it if you are not going to use it?

Oll an gwella





edited by: CowethasPeranSans, Apr 12, 2009 - 12:55 AM

CowethasPeranSans
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Post by CowethasPeranSans » Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:00 am

I hope we will be able to do business, but you will have to behave in a much more professional and dignified manner than you have done in your penultimate post.

You will not make many friends or influence anyone behaving as disgracefully as that. Do not waste your talent. Use it. One prayer book is enough for just now, but we would like other material in SWF/T if you are able to help.


Goky: then they [school assembly plans] should be in the SWF not Everson's concoction



Cres ha lowen dhys









edited by: CowethasPeranSans, Apr 12, 2009 - 01:19 AM

Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:09 am


CowethasPeranSans said:

We are only a small fellowship and do not presently have any members who are knowledgable enough to produce material of a high enough standard (we are primarily concerned with Celtic spirituality and eco-responsibility).



Drog yw genev, dell hevel my re wrug kemmyska dha gowethas gans korf arall.

I'm sorry, I seem to have muddled up your society with another organisation.


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