“Skeul an Tavas” -- Corslyver rag Skeul an Yethow dyllys gans Agan Tavas ha gans Evertype

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
Morvil
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Post by Morvil » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:23 am


factotum said:
"Michael, your concern for the poor unrepresented Kernewegoryon who preocclude is touching. How many do you think there actually are? How many of those feel the need to express their speech impediment in writing? And how many of them would ever use KK in any case?"



Calling pre-occlusion a "speech impediment" is silly. BTW pre-occluders can be found in all orthography "camps", thus also in the KK group, even misapplied. I once heard a speaker in the recording of a well-known course pronounce the KK-name Yowann as /ju"wadn/. 
As Marhak has pointed out, calling PO a "speech impediment" is as unwarranted as doing likewise for assibilation or indeed any more or less regular sound change in the development of a language. Is unrounding of front rounded vowels such as tus > /ti:z/ a speech impediment? Is the loss of final v in enev > ena a speech impediement? No, these are more or less regular sound changes in Cornish.
There are a few other languages that also show (or at least pronounce) pre-occlusion regularly: Manx (keead blein /ki:d blidn/ "a hundred years"), Icelandic (seinna /"sEitna/ "later"), Faeroese (seinni /"saidnI/ "later"), South Tyrolean (bai "bee", baidn /baidn/ "bees"). Do the speakers of these languages all suffer from the same speech impediment, or would you consider the possibility of PO being part of the phonological "make-up" of these languages?

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:43 am


marhak said:
I do wonder about your thought processes at times, Pieter.  In what way was my comment regarding Grade-type exams a curmudgeonly comment about 'Skeul an Tavas'?  Nor, in my view, was it curmudgeonly.  The Grade exams are outdated and outmoded.  They're half a century out of date.  Education has moved on since the original Language Board introduced them.  The Languages Ladder is the current process of examination/education and it took the Partnership to realise that because the Board didn't.  That's not curmudgeonly comment.  It's fact.


You don't recognise that your comment was curmudgeonly?  That's only to be expected.
It's clear that you only recognise certain traits in others, marhak.  Never in yourself.
It's a failing of yours, but C24 readers will enjoy the chuckles it engenders.
When did you last look at the Grade exams, marhak?  Have you read the syllabus, marhak?
They're not half a century out of date (you do sometimes write some complete nonsense, marhak, you really do).  I don't know how many times they've been updated, but the last time was just a couple of years ago. 
We were told at a language weekend that they had been updated after assessing very carefully how things were done for a number of other modern languages (sounds like more hard work for the Cornish Languge Board, while everyone else sat back, did nothing, but then enjoyed the fruits of the labour).
They were updated, according to the first paragraph of the syllabus "to bring the Cornish examinations into line with the modern specifications for language assessment at GCSE and GCE AS and A2 levels".
As such my guess is that they will stand alongside the Languages Ladder scheme, just as the two schemes do for other languages in schools - the Languages Ladder is not THE current process of examination/education, as you've stated.  It's one of them - I think you may have misunderstood that.
And it's odd that you think the Cornish Language Board didn't recognise the arrival of the Languages Ladder, given that as far as I can tell the people that drove the Cornish Languages Ladder forward were Board members, and the people that did all the work (not surprisingly) were users of - you guessed it - KK.

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:47 am


Morvil said:
Calling pre-occlusion a “speech impediment” is silly.



I agree.  So does he, I suspect.

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:24 pm

Do piss off, Reeves.

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SalaciousCrumb
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Post by SalaciousCrumb » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:29 pm



Can you give us an example of how they are outmoded, ( a couple of typical questions from the each of the grades would help, ) and in comparison a couple some examples form the examinations of the other organisations such as the Cussel or Agan Tavas.
thanks


Hello again, goky my 'ansome!
Long time no speak!
What are you doing here, I thought you were banned for being an obnoxious stirrer?


Nyaaaaa, haaa, haaa, haaa, haaaaa!

Gorvrywi
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Post by Gorvrywi » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:23 pm

Goky.... Go away.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:37 pm

Ah sweet Crumb. We have missed you.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:57 pm

No CHANCE that we've got the wrong person, Little Weasel. Your punctuation could not be faked.

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Taran
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Post by Taran » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:04 pm

Go away Reeves. You are not welcome here.

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:14 pm

And you can stick your questions where the monkeys stick their nuts.  And it's Mr Weatherhill to you.

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:39 pm

Dan @ The change in Late Cornish of /wo, ow/ to /u/ seems almost all pervasive, so the problem is not kernowek > cornuack (or whatever variant you prefer), which seems to follow the lowen > luan track as expected, but to explain how clowas (and bownas?) resisted this change. There is certainly something very odd about these two words, when we understand it we'll know a lot more about Cornish.
In any case if you postulate an early MC */kernoweg/ then you've got an even bigger gap to bridge back to even earlier */kernIweg/ -- our kernewek does at least fall in the middle, and so to me (unless you can suggest some entirely different way of getting from /Iw/ to /Ow/) it's the most plausible form.
Since you've brought up gwydhenn, the problem with spelling like (some of) the mss as gwethen/an is that you would have to mark the 'e' somehow to show that here it's a high-mid, not a low-mid vowel, as is done with hooks and dots in ME text books, or a different style of 'e' or whatever. Or you could just write 'y' ;-) The problem is that the mss don't bother to distinguish because English didn't in this position. Exactly the same really as with the 'th' representing both /D/ and /T/. Why do you make such a fuss about one and none at all about the other? I can see not logic whatever here.
And since you mention schwa. Isn't it odd that if final unstressed low-ish vowels were all reduced to schwa way back in early MC (thus sayeth Nynja), that Lhuyd doesn't afaik represent a single one with his dotted-y schwa symbol? (How will Dan, the Hoodini of debate get out of that one? -- Hold you breath, roll of drums ... :-)  )




Pokorny
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Post by Pokorny » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:30 pm


And since you mention schwa. Isn't it odd that if final unstressed low-ish vowels were all reduced to schwa way back in early MC (thus sayeth Nynja), that Lhuyd doesn't afaik represent a single one with his dotted-y schwa symbol? (How will Dan, the Hoodini of debate get out of that one? — Hold you breath, roll of drums …    )


That's a rather easy one to get out of actually. Lhuyd's perception may have been influenced by his own Welsh L1 bias. AFAIK Welsh phonology does not normally allow schwa in post-tonal position, so Lhuyd could have heard it as [a] in unstressed final syllables. Had he transcribed only Late Cornish (thus depriving us of the opportunity to compare his transcriptions with actual speech for other, better-known phonological systems), my tentative explanation would of course be pure speculation. This is not the case, however. Lhuyd transcribed Breton louzaouenn, herb, as <luzauan> and terzhienn, fever, as <tersian>. The final syllables in both words are pronounced [-ɛn] or [-ən] according to dialect, but never [-an]. If he heard [ə] as [a] in this position in Breton, he would probably have done so in Cornish, too.

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