"Jowal Lethesow" dyllys in Kernowek

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:50 pm

Konvedhes a wrav an pyth a leverydh, mes porth kov nag esa hwans dhyn a'n terroes ma: herdhys warnan a veu.
Anselm

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:38 am

marhak said:It's clear enough to me, and it does simplify things.  If revivalists pronounce a word (like bys, 'world') two different ways, it makes no sense to have two spellings for it.  Far better to have one and mark the vowel accordingly.  Easy and unconfusing.  It's why Nance used diacritics in his dictionary and learning materials - to make things clearer, to reduce confusion about pronunciation, and to retain traditional spellings.  No one found those confusing.  KS uses a different system for these, but for broadly the same purpose.


Margheg, when did you last read the pronunciation instructions in the old UC books? They are muddled, they are unclear, they differ from book to book, sometimes they contradict themselves even in the same volume. Clearly, Nance, Smith, Pool et. al. found `traditional spelling' confusing. And if they, the authorities of their day, were confused, God help the poor learner. Hence the current "tradition of mispronunciation" we're having to work through. Bad enough in itself, without having to face a campaign to put the clock back to the Nancian dark ages.


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factotum
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Post by factotum » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:07 am

Evertype said:
The AHG (at least the Kesva and Cowethas representatives) did not find this appealling. So we got an alternation bys/bes and we chose to mark those vowels so that there would be no confusion with the bys and mes classes of words.




Clearly for all the faults of the set-up, those individuals who ended up on the AHG were neither entirely out of touch with the real world or teaching Cornish to real people, nor entirely devoid of common sense. If they didn't like your 'ei' then your 'clever' diacritics don't have a hope in hell of being accepted by any successor committee. Remember the howls of protest on CO when you first floated the idea of diacritics there? And the many sensible posts from teachers like our own PC carefully explaining why the idea was quite impractical? If not please consult the archives.
Also the entire concept is predicated on your belief that there is out there somewhere a large and active community of Late users. I see no evidence of this. I see no original published works using LC, other than teaching books and dictionaries etc. But if someone did write a cracking good novel, history or whatever using Late conventions, I don't imagine the rest of us would find it too hard to follow -- the main problem with understanding Late is not that byz becomes beas, but the degenerate grammar and funny run-together and turned-inside-out words, like tereba, pecara etc.


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factotum
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Post by factotum » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:32 am

Evertype said:


Keith, on the other hand, tries to be an expert on spelling. He tells us that he knows all about how Cornish spelling is really Middle English. He tells us he can tell all sorts of things about rhymes from the MS spelling. Yet he regularly, regularly, makes a range of common spelling errors, like "it's" for "its"
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Along with about 60% of the people who post informal comments on the internet. You always understand what was intended, otherwise you'd be unable to correct me. I type quickly and make typos, often I spot them afterwards, but unless they detract from understanding my meaning, I can't always be bothered to correct them. Besides, I know how much they wind you up, no-one else is particularly bothered. This is not a published book, Michael. It's an informal discussion. When transcripts of discussions warrant publication, they are edited by professional editiors who tidy up the grammar, spelling and punctuation to fit their own rigid rules. Fine, everything has it's place and purpose. These rules are on the whole relatively modern, and arose because printed books etc. (as opposed to mss) passed through the hands of professional editors and compositors. No such rules existed when the MC mss were written, and don't seem to have been strictly applied to our LC texts. In short, your argument re my incompetence fall flat, it has nothing to do with the case.
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and "varient" for "variant"
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This proves, 1. that I pronounce the final vowel as [@] along with millions of other English speakers, 2. that I lack a photographic memory, and 3. that I couldn't be bothered to waste five minutes leafing through a dictionary. Do you equate rote memory with intelligence?
OTOH your touching faith that the mss spellings can be taken at face value and don't need to be interpreted in the light of the prevailing ME spelling conventions, is just naive.



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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:13 am

Late conventions, such as pre-occlusion, are used in 'Jowal Lethesow' because we felt them to be appropriate to the area which provides the setting for the story (West Penwith).  (Fair enough – you couldn't set a story in the Yorkshire Dales and have a bluff Thirsk farmer say: 'Gaw, luv a duck, guv'nah', could you?).
Well, OK - the TV people do it by having 'Cornish' characters speaking everything from East Anglian to Zummerzet to Long John Silver.  Everything but Cornish accents.
Stevie sees no evidence that LC users are using KS!  Could be because he's not in touch with them, and we are.  Have a good look at the list of people who worked on KS, and you'll see several LC users among the names.
Keith – I wasn't talking about the construction of those learning books from the sixties and before (I agree, they're bloody hard to follow, in line with the curious teaching methods of the first half of C20) – just the use of diacritics by Nance and others to at least aid pronunciation.
PS - Does my use of Z in Zummerzet get me off your sh*t list?

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:33 am

Keith said:

This proves, 1. that I pronounce the final vowel as [@] along with millions of other English speakers, 2. that I lack a photographic memory, and 3. that I couldn't be bothered to waste five minutes leafing through a dictionary. Do you equate rote memory with intelligence?I do recall learning to spell when I was a child. There's a difference between "making a mistake" and "not giving a shìt". You couldn't be bothered to try to spell correctly? That's sloppy. It's not laudable. It just ticks another "No" box on the checklist "Is Keith a reliable researcher?".OTOH your touching faith that the mss spellings can be taken at face value and don't need to be interpreted in the light of the prevailing ME spelling conventions, is just naive.No, it's a sign that I had good training in Middle English and other medieval languages and that I know how to read. It's a sign that I respect the texts—even their ambiguities—more than some construed theory of how things ought to have been.You're welcome to pretend that George's "orthographic profiles" are meaningful, Keith, but really, they are unsupported fictions.

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:24 pm

The orthographic profiles are simply summary tables of the raw data. If you dismiss the actual attested spellings as "unsupported fictions" then what are you left with? Of course there are no doubt the odd misreading here and there. Some are present in the C19 editions of Stokes and Norris. Any errors will of course be corrected if pointed out. Most of the original mss are now visible on line. Have you ever looked at them? I sometimes wonder.


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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:27 am

I hear that 'Jowal Lethesow' was being passed around and praised up at the Yeth an Weryn at Carbis Bay last night.
Interesting comment by Keith there.  If the actual attested spellings are dismissed as they were two decades ago, then you end up with Kernewek Kemmyn, yes?

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:55 am

marhak said:
Interesting comment by Keith there.  If the actual attested spellings are dismissed as they were two decades ago, then you end up with Kernewek Kemmyn, yes?


You can't really be that thick. KK is based upon the evidence of the 'traditional' (i.e. English based) spellings. From the texts, with all their variations etc., the underlying sound system is deduced, i.e. reconstructed. A spelling system is then devised to represent the elements of that system. Nance got it all arse-backards. He juggled the face-value mss spellings until he got something he liked, and then invented an ad hoc pronunciation system to fit. KS seems to be doing the same, it's more sophisticated, and they try to pretend they're linguists and know what they're doing, but it's all ad hoc when it comes down to it, as an evening trawling the "Spellyans" archive will quickly reveal.


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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:13 am

Are you suffering from insomnia again, ole Shagga?

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:48 pm

marhak said:Are you suffering from insomnia again, ole Shagga?

It seems that like Michael, you have no sensible comeback, and so resort to silly insults.


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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:53 pm

"Sensible comeback"? I chose not to respond because of your continued boorish disrespectful use of the epithet "Nynja".

Karesk
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Post by Karesk » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:24 pm

Ha my ow talleth skol nowyth, nyns o genev dillas ewn, mes gwlanek gwer yn y le. An flehes aral a'm henwys Robyn Hood. Y'n termyn na, drog o genev awos henna, mes lemmyn my a'n garsa yn ta!
Mes unver ov vy. Cortes a via usya hanow a wra dewis nebonen y honen.

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