"Whedhlow Kernowek" dyllys gans Evertype

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
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Taran
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Post by Taran » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:04 pm


truru
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Post by truru » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:17 pm

factotum said:

They do really seem to be scraping the barrel though. Can't any of them write/translate decent Cornish themselves? Or if they must bring back the dead, at least respect the text as it was written.


Well done Keith, we almost made it a month.

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:11 pm

If you want to read some modern, original Cornish, something that hasn't been translated from English, then get a copy of the book recently published by the Kowethas - Hwedhlow dhiworth an Orsedh.
I haven't got round to getting a copy myself yet, so I can't give many details, but I've had a quick look at someone else's copy and it looks superb.
 
And there appears to be something in it for almost everyone, given that there are tens of stories in a number of orthographies - Kemmyn, Late and Unified at least - all in one book.  It's about 2 cms thick so it should keep you in reading matter for months (or weeks if you're really keen).

Karesk
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Post by Karesk » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:53 pm

pietercharles said:
If you want to read some modern, original Cornish, something that hasn't been translated from English, then get a copy of the book recently published by the Kowethas - Hwedhlow dhiworth an Orsedh.
I haven't got round to getting a copy myself yet, so I can't give many details, but I've had a quick look at someone else's copy and it looks superb.
 
And there appears to be something in it for almost everyone, given that there are tens of stories in a number of orthographies - Kemmyn, Late and Unified at least - all in one book.  It's about 2 cms thick so it should keep you in reading matter for months (or weeks if you're really keen).


My re brenas an lyver ma ha my a yl afydhya yn tien an pyth a lever Pietercharles.

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:58 pm

Unn dra dhidhan yn kever hwedhlow Caradar - yth yw De Wet ytho treylyans a hwedhel gans an Revrond T. Mardy Rees ...
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:02 pm

factotum said:


If Smith died in 1950 then his copyright still has ten years to run, since the limit was extended from 50 to 70 years following the authors death, a few years ago.
They do really seem to be scraping the barrel though. Can't any of them write/translate decent Cornish themselves? Or if they must bring back the dead, at least respect the text as it was written.


Y sev henna oll herwydh aga gnas teythiek. Nyns eus gansa revrons vyth orth ken dus nag orth aga gwiryow. Yma hwans dhedha a ladra agan yeth - ober yn hons dhe'ga galloes i hag ober peub y'n bys, dre rann dha.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

truru
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Post by truru » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:04 pm

truru said:
"If I would have been able to go there"


Mar kwrellen vy gallos mos ena?
Michael, you're the linguist, is "If I would have been able to go there" the same as "If I had been able to go there"?

Karesk
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Post by Karesk » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:19 pm

truru said:
truru said:
"If I would have been able to go there"


Mar kwrellen vy gallos mos ena?
Michael, you're the linguist, is "If I would have been able to go there" the same as "If I had been able to go there"?



"If I had been able to go there I would have gone" needs the subjunctive in the first part and the conditional in the second. If "if I would have been able to go there" means anything, I would say it means that. That's when the "If" part is unlikely or impossible (or definitely didn't happen).
"If I had been able to go there, I was unaware of it" needs the indicative in both parts (pluperfect and imperfect I suppose). That's when the "if" part could equally well be true or false.

truru
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Post by truru » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:52 pm

The imperfect subjunctive I take it? So would 'Mar kwrellen vy gallos mos ena?' be right for 'If I had been able to go there'?
And without the 'if', it would go back to the pluperfect? So 'My re wrussa gallos mos ena' would be 'I had been able to go there', right or not?


Karesk
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Post by Karesk » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:13 pm

I believe that's right. I'm not sure whether or not it's regular practice to use two auxillary verbs together, gul gallos mos. I think I would write mar kallen and my re alsa or y halsen.

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:34 pm

A big problem for the Revival was (perhaps still is?) the fact that really apart from JCH no traditional Cornish narrative prose has survived. All the other prose is translated (mostly Tregear and Bible extracts) or written by Lhuyd, and none really is original narrative conceived in Cornish. Finding a narrative prose style for Revived Cornish was/is therefore no easy matter. That's why the writings of Caradar and others are interesting historically, even though they may seem a little stiff and 'cluncky' by now. However we need to see them as written, not given a makeover by a heavy-handed and opinionated modern editor. And why the need? UC is easily understood today, and Nance's dictionary widely available and still much-used. Possibly there could be an argument for republishing in KK, since that's still what most of us use, and indeed in the SWF if and when a dictionary and an user-base appear (but don't hold your breath!) I can see no justification apart from vanity for publishing in KS since this system is only tentative, subject to discussion and revision, unofficial and unresourced. It has neither a de-facto nor a de-jury presence.
However, returning to the question of narrative prose style, one starting point, for a certain type of narrative, is Middle Welsh prose, of which there is no shortage. That's why the Cornish version of the Seven Sages of Rome would be interesting, since hopefully this was taken straight from Middle Welsh (was it??) and preserved many of the devices that work equally well in Middle Cornish.
Looking at my copy of Lewis' edition though, I wondered how much of a translation would really be necessary. It occurred to me that it might be treated like Broad Scots often is, with the odd words explained in footnotes. Anyway as an experiment I've taken a short section (ll. 182–201) and simply respelled some of the MW consonants a little, rather in the style of Lhuyd. That is /f/ is always 'f' and /v/ always 'v', /D/ is 'dh' etc. The spelling being the main problem with reading MW until you get the hang of it.
So, how far is the following understandable to Cornish speakers here? How would you translate it? How much of the original style can be retained, and is this a good idea or not? How did Caradar do it? How did Williams 'adapt' it? etc. Enjoy!

"Llyma y chweddyl," heb hi. "Prenn per-frwyth brigawg-las a oedd [was] y-mywn forest yn Freinc. A'r baedh ny mynnei frwyth prenn yn y coed namyn [except] frwyth y prenn hwnnw. A dydh-gweith ydh arganvu [discovered] y bugeil y prenn, a gweled y frwyth yn dheg ag yn garueidh [attractive] velys [sweet] aedhved, a chynullaw coeleid [a load] o'r frwyth. Ag ar hynny, nachav [behold] y baedh yn dyvod. Ag ny chavas y bugeil o ennyd [at that moment] onyd [except] dringyaw [to climb] y vrig y prenn [the crown of the tree] rhag ovyn y baedh, a'e goeleid gantaw. A'r baedh, gwedy na chavas y frwyth megys y gordhyvnassei [as he had been accustomed to], froeni ag ysgyrnygu dannedh a orug. Ag arganvod [to discover] y bugeil ym brig y prenn, a thrwy y lid [anger] dechreu [to begin] diwreidhaw y prenn. A phan welas y bugeil hynny, gellwng y frwyth y'r baedd a orug. A'r baedh, pan gavas dogyn [lit. 'a dose', here 'his fill'], ev a gysgawdh dann vrig y prenn. Ag ev yn kysgu y disgyn y bugeil y'r llawr, ag a dyrr breuant y baedh a chyllell."




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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:00 pm

Gwir y leversis nag eus acheson gwiw dhe Vick-n-Nick gwari an kast proutnedh ma, mes yma unn skila vas. Y fydh golok pur dha war askorr an spennans oll ma dhe benn nebes bledhynyow. Ha kesedhek kyn fe a gonselloryon na woer tra vyth yn kever agan yeth ow supposya gul ervirans a'gan parth, y fynn Mick-n-Nick diskwedhes aga lyvrow Potemkin, Captain Courageous ha'y geun byghan a vynn leverel aga bones marvellous ha wonderful, ni a wra godhevel nebes bledhynyow hwath a flows ha gowyow, agan kestedh a wra pesya, ha Dorys arta a wra minhwerthin a leun golonn.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:55 am

It would certainly be a good idea to keep anything halfways decent written in Cornish in print. Perhaps with footnotes where we now believe the grammar etc. to be wrong, or where we've discovered a better word etc. What I can't understand is why AT (or whoever) won't reprint it as it was written, since anything in UC or Late is 'traditional orthography' in their terms (i.e. anything 'not KK') and therefore entirely cosher. So what really is their aganda? What are they trying to achieve and what is driving them? Some possibilities :
* To bugger KK;
* Ditto the Kesva;
* Ditto the SWF (UC has already been made obsolete by the Process and it's fall-out);

* Ditto the entire Revival;
* To add to the confusion and feed the general impression that Cornish is a big joke.
Add your own suggestions …


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Eddie-C
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Post by Eddie-C » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:14 am

Keith wrote, "It would certainly be a good idea to keep anything halfways decent written in Cornish in print. Perhaps with footnotes where we now believe the grammar etc. to be wrong, or where we've discovered a better word etc."


At least you start quite sensibly. In my opinion, the only reason for transliterating an existing work in Cornish is to make clearer what the passage of time has rendered obscure. Thus, it is perfectly valid to put, say, The Ordinalia into a modern orthography like UC or KS (or even, if you're that way inclined, KK) for ordinary readers. The more scholarly will insist on exact transcriptions, or photographic facsimiles, of course, but that's a separate matter.


Of course, if the author gives consent, there can be no objection to an existing modern work being transliterated. This is precisely what Spyrys a Gernow did in publishing --with his generous consent-- a UC edition of John Parker's excellent "Kescowsow". That's a private matter between the writer and the publisher, and nobody's business but their own.


By contrast, modern writers like 'Mordon' Nance, 'Caradar' Smith, 'Talek' Hooper, 'Perhyryn' Palmer are sadly no longer with us to give that consent. As their works are already in a modern, normalised orthographies (UC, UCR), which all modern Middle-Cornish Kernewegoryon can readily understand, there is no need for such transliterations. These modern classics should only be reprinted in their original, authentic form.


He continued, "...What I can't understand is why AT (or whoever) won't reprint it as it was written..."


Evertype is an independent publisher, and does not speak for Agan Tavas. Like me, he is merely an ordinary member, and his views (like mine) are no more than his own.


For you, Keith, to suggest otherwise is no more than your usual disinformational 'busel tarow', along with your crap about him/us wanting to "bugger the SWF", "bugger the entire Revival".


After you started so well, Keith, it's disappointing if unsurprising to see you descend yet again into delusional lies and fantasies. Still, it's just what got you chucked out of the KKesva, ain't it?!

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