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Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:29 pm
by truru
marhak said:

There is only one solution.  Get Cornish into schools, as a matter of absolute priority.



 

How?

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:06 pm
by Evertype
Getting Irish into schools did not save Irish. What will save Cornish is you people using it—which is what is saving Irish (minority or not). Getting Cornish into schools will raise its profile though.

My own contribution (as a linguist, typesetter, and publisher) is to make a range of interesting materials available in good Cornish (Nicholas' translations are excellent and authentic) in an orthography that helps rather than hinders good pronunciation (assuming of course the real phonology of Revived Cornish and not some "Brythonic aspiration" that its own promulgators can't even produce). Nicholas' books have lots of conversations in them, and reading conversational prose is a good way to learn how to speak.

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:18 pm
by Marhak
Get MAGA, the Partnership and the Local Education Authority into a room and don't let them out until they've agreed and signed a definite plan with a firm time scale to be strictly adhered to.

I disagree with Michael here -  unlike Irish, Cornish hasn't had native speakers for well over a century and is therefore worse off.  If Cornish doesn't get to the young, then it will have no future.  Today's speakers will be here for - what?  Another thirty, forty years (less in some cases)?  When they're gone, what then?  In this day and age, with spare-time distractions like computer games, the only way you'll get the language to the kids is through the schools.

The biggest fault of the revival has been its failure to attract and cater for the young.  All the language organisations are equally to blame here.  None of us has done nearly enough in that respect - too busy staring up our own backsides instead of at the language's future.  Dalleth was excellent when it was running, but it wasn't around for long enough - we need another Dalleth, and the people who can work with kids (don't look at me - I'm of the opinion that kids are best roasted on a slow spit over an open fire!  Or casseroled.  In any case, kids aren't going to identify with a bald wreck of a 59 year old).

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:25 pm
by Karesk
My impression is that compulsory Irish teaching in schools to children who don't take it seriously, and Irish language requirements for getting employment etc, have been damaging. I doubt it would be helpful to make Cornish compulsory for students, but perhaps compulsion on schools to offer it will be the only way it will happen. I dare say the most likely way to get that would be if there was clear demand from parents across Cornwall. And schools will then need good teaching materials and reading books in the SWF to be able to deliver that. However good Evertype's books are, it will be difficult for schools to use them.

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:35 pm
by Karesk
marhak said:

 kids aren't going to identify with a bald wreck of a 59 year old).



It's a myth that kids and older people can't work well together. Charismatic older adults with obvious real life experience are often the most popular and respected teachers. I can imagine that a Cornish lesson on horseback riding around the ancient sites of the Penwith moors led by someone who knows them as well as you would work far better than a conventional classroom lesson.

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:29 pm
by Evertype
Perhaps I should have said it differently. "Don't leave the Revival to the schools" is what I meant. The Irish governments pretended (and still pretend) that leaving the Athbheochán (the Revival) to the schools was enough. It wasn't, in part because they taught (and some still teach) the language as an Exam Subject as opposed to a language for speaking.

Karesk, the differences between the SWF and KS are not that great. A page of Alys in Pow an Anethow in KS and the same page in SWF look very much alike. KS reflects the pronunciation of both dialects of Revived Cornish more accurately, however, than the SWF does.

(And I am not talking about the "cosmetic" issue of qw/kw or wh/hw or c/k. One could write KS with the /M graphs. I wouldn't, but if one did, that "KS/M" would reflect the pronunciation of both dialects of Revived Cornish more accurately than the SWF/M does.)

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:30 pm
by Evertype
Karesk said:

marhak said:

 kids aren't going to identify with a bald wreck of a 59 year old).



It's a myth that kids and older people can't work well together. Charismatic older adults with obvious real life experience are often the most popular and respected teachers. I can imagine that a Cornish lesson on horseback riding around the ancient sites of the Penwith moors led by someone who knows them as well as you would work far better than a conventional classroom lesson.I like this very much!

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:40 pm
by Karesk
A confident teacher might well give students books to read in other forms than the SWF that she or he will presumably have been teaching, wisely trusting them to cope with the variations. But I think a lot of teachers will be afraid that using anything other than the SWF will be against the rules, or will be confusing.

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:41 pm
by P_Trembath
marhak said:

........with spare-time distractions like computer games, the only way you'll get the language to the kids is through the schools.



Or through spare-time distractions like computer games.

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:57 pm
by Karesk
Very true.

The potential is, for at least one generation, for Cornish to be something that kids know and adults don't, which ought to be a strong selling point.

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:59 pm
by Anselm
factotum said:

The third approach, a very cunning one at that, was Williams' in CT and later. Let's pretend that MC really was pronounced in the Nancian ad hoc manner (for all I know he may have believed this). And lets then rewite the history of the language to "make it so". Well his bluff has been called, his theories don't stand up, although they have created much confusion in the minds of ordinary learners. Was this his real intention?

 

 



 

I think the problem is deeper than that, in the basic philosophical incoherence. Nevertheless, had his attitude towards the Cornish-speaking community been less unfortunate, and his approach to the language been less unstable and inconsistent, he might have gained a certain amount of support.

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:09 pm
by Evertype
Karesk said:
A confident teacher might well give students books to read in other forms than the SWF that she or he will presumably have been teaching, wisely trusting them to cope with the variations. But I think a lot of teachers will be afraid that using anything other than the SWF will be against the rules, or will be confusing.Maybe; I don\'t really agree with you, though. In any case, I can\'t help it; I won\'t publish literature in a form of Cornish that has identified mistakes in it. And I didn\'t want to wait until 2013 to hope for linguistic shortcomings to be fixed. Instead, I have, with others, engaged creatively and seriously with the SWF, and have published in a decidedly improved form.

Andrew Climo\'s students (who are learning SWF and used to be learning UCR) asked him to use Alys as an addition to their other course material.

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:19 pm
by Karesk
Evertype said:

Perhaps I should have said it differently. "Don't leave the Revival to the schools" is what I meant. The Irish governments pretended (and still pretend) that leaving the Athbheochán (the Revival) to the schools was enough. It wasn't, in part because they taught (and some still teach) the language as an Exam Subject as opposed to a language for speaking.

Karesk, the differences between the SWF and KS are not that great. A page of Alys in Pow an Anethow in KS and the same page in SWF look very much alike. KS reflects the pronunciation of both dialects of Revived Cornish more accurately, however, than the SWF does.

(And I am not talking about the "cosmetic" issue of qw/kw or wh/hw or c/k. One could write KS with the /M graphs. I wouldn't, but if one did, that "KS/M" would reflect the pronunciation of both dialects of Revived Cornish more accurately than the SWF/M does.)



 

Another problem is prejudice. I suspect (maybe I'm wrong) that if you were teaching Cornish you would not give students texts in KK to read. Equally I'm fairly sure there would be teachers who would not give their students texts in KS. At some later stage, students from two different schools would meet and be surprised to discover that they could understand each other and read each others' writing.

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:27 pm
by Evertype
Tim said:
I think the problem is deeper than that, in the basic philosophical incoherence. Nevertheless, had his attitude towards the Cornish-speaking community been less unfortunate, and his approach to the language been less unstable and inconsistent, he might have gained a certain amount of support.Your problem, Tim, is that you're just a nasty, backbiting begrudger. You can't say anything nice about anything Nicholas or I do. You won't. All you do is blubber your sneaky little innuendo.

If you were less of an unpleasant jerk, maybe we'd actually care about your refusal to give even the smallest unreserved acknowledgement of our achievement. As it is, you'll just have to put up with the many excellent publications which we have planned. I'm sure each will gall you as much as the last.

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:30 pm
by Evertype
Karesk said:
Another problem is prejudice. I suspect (maybe I'm wrong) that if you were teaching Cornish you would not give students texts in KK to read. Didn't you know that in Alys in Pow an Anethow actually has some KK text in it? :smile: