"Whedhlow Kernowek" dyllys gans Evertype

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:11 am

Karesk said:

Ny vydh gorthyp dhe henna!
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

Karesk
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Post by Karesk » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:59 pm

Ottoma hwethel a glewys vy a Robyn Mab Wella, bardh Albanek.
Ha Duw ow kul an bys, hag ynno Adam, Adam o digoweth ha hirethek. Yth eth ev dhe benn menydh le mayth esa ev herwydh usadow ow kewsel gans Duw.
“A Dhuw” yn medh ev, “A yllta ow gul kowethes deg, karadow, hebask, gostydh, uvel, ha diwysyk, a vynn ow gwitha, ow hara, ow boesa, ha maga ow fleghes yn lowen ha heb krodhvol?”
“Gallav, ow mab, mes honna a vydh orth dha gostya.”
“Pygemmys a gost hy?” yn medh Adam.
“Bregh ha garr.”
“Ha pandr’a allav vy kavos rag asenn?”
Ytho, Duw a gemeras asenn diworth Adam, hag ef a wrug ganso benyn. An venyn a sevys yn bann ha dalleth klappya an Kernewek derowel a Baradhis. Plegadow o honna dhe Adam. Pan dheuth an gorthuher, ev eth dhe benn an menydh hag yn medh ev:
“A Dhuw, prag a wrussta mar deg ha mar wheg an venyn?”
“Ow mab, my a’s gwrug mar deg ha mar wheg ma’s karres jy.”
D’wor’an nos, y a goska warbarth yn lowen. Ha nessa myttyn, Adam eth dhe benn an menydh arta.
“A Dhuw” yn medh ev, “prag a wrussta mar vedhel ha mar jershadow an venyn?”
“Ow mab,” yn medh Duw, “my a’s gwrug yndella ma’s karres jy.”
Adam ow tehweles dh’y gowethes, hi a dhallathas arta klappya an Kernowek wheg a lowarth Eden, ha pesya yndella heb let bys an gorthuher. Yth eth Adam arta dhe benn an menydh hag yn medh ev:
“A Dhuw, prag a wrussta mar wokki an venyn?”
“Ow mab,” yn medh Duw, “my a’s gwrug gokki ma’th karra hi.”
*******************************************************************************************
Eus drolla genes?

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:25 pm

Marhuz, gwryz yn ta! Nynz eus genev y'n eur-ma marnaz ow threylyans a'n temmig dhiworth an
Seith Doet[h]ion hag a vydh postyyz omma yn skon. Mez kyns ez henna ... dha skrif a dhiskwe porran fatell yw lytherennans Kerneweg hedhyw y'n jydh yn kres toedhva, h.y. yn stat kemmyskyz ha direwleg, dres oll diworth den neb a yll, heb mar, skrife Kerneweg bryntin
A KK editor would have to correct "gorthuHer", but a Silly Written editior would not like "fleGHes".
A KK editor would have to correct "kavos", but a Silly editor would choke on "boesa", hag yndella rag ...
The first is really just a matter of taste, although we need to determine perhaps whether on not there was any real contrast between the sounds of 'h' and 'gh' within words. No doubt an expert committee is at work on this question even now ... Though since both UC and KK write "fleghes" one wonders what possible reason there could have been for changing this, "fleghes" is attested after all (along with "fleg[h]as, fleg[h]ys). Presumably to please the UCR/KS/KSII/whoknowswhatnext lobby, whose support amounted to a few percent of the survey respondents.
The other example is more interesting. Boeze 'to feed' isn't in fact attested outside of Lhuyd, but it's Middle Cornish form can be deduced easily enough. If it had occurred in the texts it would almost certainly have been written "bose/bosa" since in words of this shape, the lenghtened oe wasn't distinguished from o, following Middle English practice. Therefore is we're going to follow the texts, or rather in this case the system used in the texts, we'd want to write "bose/a", and if we want to spell by sound (phonetic or phonemic) we'd need to write "boese/a" or if we want to look silly and English "boosa".
But kavoez is even better. The texts write "cafos/cafus" most of the time. Since the scribes spelled phonetically, and since there was no u sound as in pur in unstressed syllables, the 'u' here must stand for either oe or just possibly ou. The last is unlikely since it's almost entirely restricted to loans, generally spelled 'ou' and wouldn't alternate with 'o'. So in this and similar words we can be sure the vowel was oe and not o, as sure as we can be about anything in Cornish. So if we want to be 'authentic' and spell like the texts we need to write 'cafus' or 'cafos' of which the first is the least ambiguous (and slightly more common). UC oddly gives only 'cafos, cavos, cawas', so UC purists would I suppose be inclined to write 'cafos'. KK has 'kavoes', and to be completely phonemic we should write 'kavoez'. So who on earth dreamed up the Silly 'kavos'? Is it authentic -- No; is it an established form, UC or KK -- No; is it either phonetic or phonemic or morphophonemic -- No! So who is it there to please, and what purpose can it serve other than to mislead and confuse people over the sound of this (and similar) words, when (and this is important) the evidence is not in doubt.
We were 'sold' the Process as a means to stabilising the language and bringing the factions together. We was had. It has had exactly the opposite effect. Who was driving the process and what was their real agenda?




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factotum
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Post by factotum » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:53 pm

Fatell a wrug Caradar ha NJAW treylye hemma? A yll nebonan postye aga geryow?
---
``Ottomma an hwedhel,'' ynmedh hi. ``Yth eze perwydhenn froethlen las-skorrenneg abervedh koezwig yn Pow Frynk. Ha ny vynne an badh hwilaz frut yndann gwydhenn vytholl y'n koez marnaz yndann honna. Ha treweyth y teudh an bugel erbynn an wydhenn ha gwelez an frut yndanni dhe voz teg tennoezeg ha hweg adhvez, may kuntellas ev an perfroeth oll. Hag ottena, an badh ow toz, ha ny allse an bugel y'n pols-na mez yskynne an wydhenn byz yn hy skorrennow, rag own a'n badh, ha'n froeth ganso. Ha pan na gavas an badh an perfroeth dell waytse, frikhwythe ha deskerni y dhyns a wrug. Hag omglywez an bugel avann yn skorrennow an wydhenn, hag yn y sorr y tallathas hy diwreydhye hi. Ha'n bugel, ynunn welez henna, a dhellas an froeth dhe'n badh. Ha woze an badh re dhebras y leunder, koske dann goskez an wydhenn a wrug. Hag ena, ha'n badh fest yn kosk, y tiyskynn an bugel dhe'n leur ha gans kollell a derr bryansenn an badh.''
---
Mammskrif omma (ll 4-- ):
http://www.rhyddiaithganoloeso.....p;page=46v




Karesk
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Post by Karesk » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:02 pm

I said:
“A Dhuw” yn medh ev, “A yllta ow gul kowethes deg, karadow, hebask, gostydh, uvel, ha diwysyk, a vynn ow gwitha, ow hara, ow boesa, ha maga ow fleghes yn lowen ha heb krodhvol?”




I'm sure there are plenty more mistakes than this, but having seen it I can't leave it. How about "A yllta gul ragov..."?


Thanks for your comments, Factotum. I would like to hear a response to what you say about spelling from someone like Pokorny, because I'm sure there's more to it than silliness.


My Cornish vocabulary is fairly thin so I can't judge how easy your Welsh text would be to read if I was more fluent in Cornish. I do get the feeling that it wouldn't be too hard to go from Welsh to Cornish once you were used to it. But would Welsh be a good model for Cornish style?
As far as I can see, Caradar followed the Welsh quite closely in his Mabinogion translations. But Lhuyd's Welsh translation of JCH looks quite a lot different from Boson's Cornish (that's an opinion from someone who has no qualification at all to give one - what do any Welsh speakers think?)

Karesk
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Post by Karesk » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:07 pm

factotum said:
Fatell a wrug Caradar ha NJAW treylye hemma? A yll nebonan postye aga geryow?
---
``Ottomma an hwedhel,'' ynmedh hi. ``Yth eze perwydhenn froethlen las-skorrenneg abervedh koezwig yn Pow Frynk. Ha ny vynne an badh hwilaz frut yndann gwydhenn vytholl y'n koez marnaz yndann honna. Ha treweyth y teudh an bugel erbynn an wydhenn ha gwelez an frut yndanni dhe voz teg tennoezeg ha hweg adhvez, may kuntellas ev an perfroeth oll. Hag ottena, an badh ow toz, ha ny allse an bugel y'n pols-na mez yskynne an wydhenn byz yn hy skorrennow, rag own a'n badh, ha'n froeth ganso. Ha pan na gavas an badh an perfroeth dell waytse, frikhwythe ha deskerni y dhyns a wrug. Hag omglywez an bugel avann yn skorrennow an wydhenn, hag yn y sorr y tallathas hy diwreydhye hi. Ha'n bugel, ynunn welez henna, a dhellas an froeth dhe'n badh. Ha woze an badh re dhebras y leunder, koske dann goskez an wydhenn a wrug. Hag ena, ha'n badh fest yn kosk, y tiyskynn an bugel dhe'n leur ha gans kollell a derr bryansenn an badh.''



"Llyma y chweddyl," heb hi. "Prenn per-frwyth brigawg-las a oedd [was] y-mywn forest yn Freinc. A'r baedh ny mynnei frwyth prenn yn y coed namyn [except] frwyth y prenn hwnnw. A dydh-gweith ydh arganvu [discovered] y bugeil y prenn, a gweled y frwyth yn dheg ag yn garueidh [attractive] velys [sweet] aedhved, a chynullaw coeleid [a load] o'r frwyth. Ag ar hynny, nachav [behold] y baedh yn dyvod. Ag ny chavas y bugeil o ennyd [at that moment] onyd [except] dringyaw [to climb] y vrig y prenn [the crown of the tree] rhag ovyn y baedh, a'e goeleid gantaw. A'r baedh, gwedy na chavas y frwyth megys y gordhyvnassei [as he had been accustomed to], froeni ag ysgyrnygu dannedh a orug. Ag arganvod [to discover] y bugeil ym brig y prenn, a thrwy y lid [anger] dechreu [to begin] diwreidhaw y prenn. A phan welas y bugeil hynny, gellwng y frwyth y'r baedd a orug. A'r baedh, pan gavas dogyn [lit. 'a dose', here 'his fill'], ev a gysgawdh dann vrig y prenn. Ag ev yn kysgu y disgyn y bugeil y'r llawr, ag a dyrr breuant y baedh a chyllell."




---
(Just so we can see the Welsh and Cornish together)




pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:13 pm

Karesk said:
I'm sure there are plenty more mistakes than this, but having seen it I can't leave it. How about "A yllta gul ragov..."?




That's better.  You also need 'kowethes teg' because 's' at the end of a word inhibits t->d mutation.  And 'yllta' should really have an apostrophe because the '-ydh' ending ('a yllydh ta') is missing.  And it seems to me that because 'gul' does such a lot of work in Cornish it is an unwritten rule that the alternative verbal noun 'gwruthyl' is used to emphasise the meaning 'create'.  Others may disagree, of course!
So I'd go for
"A yll'ta gwruthyl ragov kowethes teg... "  

Gorvrywi
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Post by Gorvrywi » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:27 pm

As an aside.. (as I work through what all this Cornish is about)
What is the Cornish for Eden?

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:37 pm

'Eden', from the Hebrew.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:19 pm

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, mea maxissima culpa ...
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:21 am

David said:

or 'Ëden' in KS.

Incorrect, Gocky. That would imply an *Ëden/Ÿden alternation which does not obtain.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:22 am

Anselm said:Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, mea maxissima culpa ...You have a lot to apologize for, Tim, but I don't think that you actually mean it when you do.

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:45 am

Karesk said:
I said:
“A Dhuw” yn medh ev, “A yllta ow gul kowethes deg, karadow, hebask, gostydh, uvel, ha diwysyk, a vynn ow gwitha, ow hara, ow boesa, ha maga ow fleghes yn lowen ha heb krodhvol?”



I'm sure there are plenty more mistakes than this, but having seen it I can't leave it. How about "A yllta gul ragov..."?
-----
***  Yes, I missed that too, we all make mistakes
-----
Thanks for your comments, Factotum. I would like to hear a response to what you say about spelling from someone like Pokorny, because I'm sure there's more to it than silliness.
-------
*** I wasn't meaning to get at you personally or criticise your Cornish. My point was that although your Cornish looks pretty good to me, you were spelling sometimes in KK and other times in SWF. Pretty much half and half although I wasn't counting. I couldn't begin to guess which form you intended, or maybe you didn't care (can't blame you!) So the effect of the Process was simply to create confusion. However if the spelling of Cornish is in melt-down, perhaps over the next few years we can take a look at the basic principles involved, and experiment a bit, and eventually pull something lasting out of the pot.
-------

My Cornish vocabulary is fairly thin so I can't judge how easy your Welsh text would be to read if I was more fluent in Cornish. I do get the feeling that it wouldn't be too hard to go from Welsh to Cornish once you were used to it. But would Welsh be a good model for Cornish style?
-----
*** I don't know about Modern Welsh, it's syntax is different. But Middle Welsh has a lot in common with Middle Cornish and plenty of prose narrative, so it's *one* model, for a certain type of narrative.
-----
As far as I can see, Caradar followed the Welsh quite closely in his Mabinogion translations. But Lhuyd's Welsh translation of JCH looks quite a lot different from Boson's Cornish (that's an opinion from someone who has no qualification at all to give one - what do any Welsh speakers think?)


The Caradar Mabinogion (only half unfortunately) is far better than the Jowan Richards 'summary'. Why are the Kesva reprinting the wrong version? I don't know whether Caradar worked from the original Middle Welsh or from some Modern Welsh adaptation. A brief extract, at random, perhaps not the best, to give you the flavour.
Caradar :
Hag y'n termyn-na Teyrnon Twryf Vliant o arluth war Went Is Coed, hag ef o an gwella den y'n bys. Hag yn y jy yth esa casek, ha nyns o y'n wlas na margh na casek tecca agessy-hy. Ha pup Cala'Me dhe nos hy a wre denythy ebol [1], ha nefra [2] ny wodhya denvyth pyth ella an ebol-na.
[1] Should be 'ebel'; [2] Should be 'bythqueth'. To me that has a nice flow to it.
Middle Welsh :
Ac yn yr amser hwnnw yd oed yn arglwyd ar Wynt Ys Coet, Teirnon Twryf Uliant, a'r gwr goreu yn y byt oed. Ac yn y ty yd oed cassec. Ac nyt oed yn y dyrnas na march na chassec degach no hi; a phob nos Calanmei y moei, ac ny wybydei neb un geir e wrth y hebawl.
[Bold 'd's are 'dh's final 't's and 'c's are 'd's and 'g's]
Modern Welsh :
Ac yn yr amser hwnnw yr oedd Teyrnon Twrf Liant yn arglwydd ar Went Is Coed, ac ef oedd y gw^r gorau yn y byd. Ac yn y ty^ yr oedd caseg. Ac nid oedd yn y deyrnas na march na chaseg decach na hi; a phob nos Calan Mai fe fwriai ebol ac ni fyddai neb yn gwybod un gair am ei hebol.
Jowann Richards (fwiw) :
Hag y'n termyn na, yth edja Teyrnon Twryf Liant penndjevik yn Gwent Is Coed, hag yth o ev an gwella den y'n bys. Yth edja dhe Deyrnon kasek, meur hy thekter, ha pub blydhen war nos-goel Kala' Me, y hwrug hi denythi ebel, mes pupprys y feu an ebel ledrys mes a wel tus.
Imo, "meur hy thekter" hardly compares with "Ha nag eze yn y wlaskor na margh na kaseg tekka agessi." JR makes it sound more like a newspaper report than a traditional tale. One is tempted to add, "... A pe denvyth re welas an ebolyon, po a allse ri derivaz ..."




Karesk
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Post by Karesk » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:06 am

factotum said:
 you were spelling sometimes in KK and other times in SWF. Pretty much half and half although I wasn't counting. I couldn't begin to guess which form you intended, or maybe you didn't care (can't blame you!)



Variable spelling seems to be a good Cornish tradition!
It's not so much that I don't care as somewhere between I don't know any better and I'm too lazy to do it properly, along with a bit of hedging my bets.
I have been learning by reading in at least 4 spelling systems plus some non-systems (the original texts), and by writing with the help of reference material in UC, KK, and SWF. I've just started looking at some Late Cornish, too, though I think I'd prefer to treat that as something separate for now. I haven't had a teacher or followed a fixed course. I could check every word I'm not sure about in the GM and stick to that spelling, or try to work out the right SWF way. But when I know the word I want to write, I'd rather just write it and move on.
It's true it would be easy to make a choice between gh and h, and maybe in that case I would prefer gh because it leaves open the posibility of pronouncing it that way as I presume was once done and I think may still be done sometimes.
It's hard for me to make a decision about oe though, because I don't feel well enough informed about it. That's why I asked for other views (perhaps unwisely given the relative peace that seems to be prevailing here just now).

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