Sjheiss a dhysk Kernewek

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Wed May 05, 2010 2:15 pm

Morvil said:

Perhaps I would rather say something like: Dy' Lun eus passys y whruss'ta despitya/arvedh ow howeth diek.



 

Why 'eus' rather than 'usi'?  It makes it sound like 'a Monday', 'some Monday sometime in the past', 'it was on a (past) Monday that you insulted my lazy friend'. 

But really you're talking about a specific Dy'Lun - the one just passed. 

On the other hand, although I think Dy'Lun ought to be a definite noun by its very nature, it's not used that way.  You frequently hear 'an Dy'Lun na' - how else could you say 'that Monday'?  So perhaps 'An Dy'Lun usi passyes...' is an option.  Unfortunately, having thought about it rather than trying it spontaneously I'm not sure now whether I would have said the 'an' or not.  But I would have used 'usi'.

Morvil
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Post by Morvil » Wed May 05, 2010 3:42 pm

pietercharles said:

Morvil said:



Perhaps I would rather say something like: Dy' Lun eus passys y whruss'ta despitya/arvedh ow howeth diek.



 

Why 'eus' rather than 'usi'?  It makes it sound like 'a Monday', 'some Monday sometime in the past', 'it was on a (past) Monday that you insulted my lazy friend'. 

But really you're talking about a specific Dy'Lun - the one just passed. 

On the other hand, although I think Dy'Lun ought to be a definite noun by its very nature, it's not used that way.  You frequently hear 'an Dy'Lun na' - how else could you say 'that Monday'?  So perhaps 'An Dy'Lun usi passyes...' is an option.  Unfortunately, having thought about it rather than trying it spontaneously I'm not sure now whether I would have said the 'an' or not.  But I would have used 'usi'.



 

I'm sure dy' Lun is specific meaning "the Monday, on Monday, Monday"; I use eus passys as a set idiom or phrase. There are instances of an termyn eus passys or an vledhen eus passys. By the same token dy' Lun eus passys.

Morvil
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Post by Morvil » Wed May 05, 2010 3:45 pm

Eddie-C said:

Morvil wrote, "Pyth yw an carr yw an gwella (oll) genes?"

 I'm not sure this is grammatically correct; shouldn't it rather be (in UC spelling),

"Pyth yu an car usy an gwella (oll) genes?"



 

Why? It's not: "What's the car that is (located) the best with you." yw in a relative descriptive clause is stil yw. I think it's right.

Palores
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Post by Palores » Wed May 05, 2010 4:29 pm


Eddie-C said:


Morvil wrote, "Pyth yw an carr yw an gwella (oll) genes?"

 I'm not sure this is grammatically correct; shouldn't it rather be (in UC spelling),

"Pyth yu an car usy an gwella (oll) genes?"




 No; usi belongs to the long form of bos and here the short form is required; the fundamental idiom is gwell yw genev, not *yma gwell genev.

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Eddie-C
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Post by Eddie-C » Wed May 05, 2010 5:45 pm

Mur ras dhys a henna, Palores!

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Wed May 05, 2010 6:45 pm

Morvil said:

There are instances of an termyn eus passys or an vledhen eus passys.




 That's genuinely very interesting.  Where are they - could you give some references?  Are there many of them?

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Wed May 05, 2010 11:42 pm

As to the first, the opening words of Jowan Chi an Hordh (except for 'yn' rather than 'an').

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Thu May 06, 2010 8:17 am

marhak said:

As to the first, the opening words of Jowan Chi an Hordh (except for 'yn' rather than 'an').



 

Who is there that doesn't know that, marhak? 

But if you give it just a moment's thought you'll realise just how significant the bit you've put in brackets is.

Morvil
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Post by Morvil » Thu May 06, 2010 11:19 am

pietercharles said:

marhak said:



As to the first, the opening words of Jowan Chi an Hordh (except for 'yn' rather than 'an').



 

Who is there that doesn't know that, marhak? 

But if you give it just a moment's thought you'll realise just how significant the bit you've put in brackets is.



 

TH also has yn termyn passys, so maybe neither eus nor usy is necessary. Pieter, strictly you have a point with the a noun made definite, though JCH could either read yn termyn eus passys or y'n termyn eus passys. This could be a set phrase whether the noun the relative clause refers to is definite or not. Whatever it is, we could definitely say: Dy' Lun passys for "last Monday", couldn't we?
In his dictionary Nicholas Williams also gives: an termyn ues passys "auld lang syne", y'n termyn ues passysde Gwener ues passys "formerly, once upon a time, in time past", "last Friday", an vledhen ues passys "last year"; what do you make of this?

Gorvrywi
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Post by Gorvrywi » Thu May 06, 2010 12:44 pm

Didn't we have similar conversation about the lords prayer? Our Father who art' in heaven?...

Agan Tas eus yn nev?

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Thu May 06, 2010 3:43 pm

Now why do you think I put that in brackets, Pieter?  I didn't need to give it a moment's thought.

We might not all be as wonderful as you, but some of us aren't too shabby, you know.

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Thu May 06, 2010 5:52 pm


morvil wrote:
TH also has yn termyn passys, so maybe neither eus nor usy is necessary.


I agree.


morvil wrote:
JCH could either read yn termyn eus passys or y'n termyn eus passys.


I agree.  That’s the point.  Someone appears, perhaps, to have decided it is "y'n".  Why?

What evidence is there that it's “y’n”?  None, I would say.  What evidence is there that it's “yn”?  Why, the verb, of course!  It's screaming ‘indefinite’.  And also the meaning, possibly.  I’ve had this conversation with loads of people and lots of them think that ‘a time’ makes more sense than ‘the time’.  Or at least as much sense.


morvil wrote:
This could be a set phrase whether the noun the relative clause refers to is definite or not.



It could be.  But why would it be, when it could be a perfectly normal phrase which adheres to the rules as we know them?


morvil wrote:
Whatever it is, we could definitely say: Dy' Lun passys for "last Monday", couldn't we?


Yes.


morvil wrote:
In his dictionary Nicholas Williams also gives: an termyn ues passys "auld lang syne", y'n termyn ues passysde Gwener ues passys "formerly, once upon a time, in time past", "last Friday", an vledhen ues passys "last year"; what do you make of this?


Well, either he doesn’t understand the established rules, which of course is not the case, or he subscribes to the ‘set phrase’ theory.  But why?  That’s really what I’ve been asking all along.  When you wrote "there are instances of 'an termyn eus passys'” I didn’t realise you were referring to Williams’ dictionary.  I can’t see how that helps unless we know why he wrote what he did, given that it doesn’t follow the rules as we know them.

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Thu May 06, 2010 5:56 pm

marhak said:

Now why do you think I put that in brackets, Pieter?  I didn't need to give it a moment's thought.

We might not all be as wonderful as you, but some of us aren't too shabby, you know.



 

I'm sorry, marhak.

I thought you had put it in brackets to show that you knew you hadn't provided what I was asking for - a reference to 'an termyn eus passys'. 

By the way, even I  think that everyone is more wonderful than me.  I've developed a persecution complex since I started posting to C24.

Must dash.  Busy night. 

Sean of the Dead
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Post by Sean of the Dead » Thu May 06, 2010 6:02 pm

How does one say "I don't like it"? The only thing I could think of was "My ny y gar" or something similar, but something tells me that can't be right. Maybe you would just leave out "y"? Also, why isn't the "kar" in the phrase "My a'th kar" mutated? I thought it should be, coming after "dha" but for some reason unknown to me it isn't.

Also, is this sentence correct?
"A gerydh skrifa yn feur y'n yethow [eses jy ow tyski]/[y tyskydh]?"
Do you like to write a lot in the languages you are learning/you learn?

Many many thanks for all of your continued help!

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Thu May 06, 2010 6:44 pm

"An termyn eus passys" is neither more nor less logical than "A once upon a time".

♫ … A more congenial spot… For happily-ever-aftering than here in Camelot.… ♫

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