Sjheiss a dhysk Kernewek

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
Karesk
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Post by Karesk » Thu May 06, 2010 6:57 pm

pietercharles said:

morvil wrote:
JCH could either read yn termyn eus passys or y'n termyn eus passys.
I agree.  That’s the point.  Someone appears, perhaps, to have decided it is "y'n".  Why?

What evidence is there that it's “y’n”?  None, I would say.  What evidence is there that it's “yn”?  Why, the verb, of course!  It's screaming ‘indefinite’.  And also the meaning, possibly.  I’ve had this conversation with loads of people and lots of them think that ‘a time’ makes more sense than ‘the time’.  Or at least as much sense.





 Both Lhuyd's printed text and Boson's manuscript have En, without an apostrophe. I can't think of any reason for interpreting it as y'n.

On the other hand, both Smith and Brown say that in relative clauses eus can be used with either definite or indefinite antecedents, though Brown says "but in Modern Cornish is confined to the latter."

Smith quotes:

PC 431 a'n fleghys us ow cane

BM2293 in hanov crist us avan

OM1419 rag an lafur us thethe

Karesk
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Post by Karesk » Thu May 06, 2010 7:18 pm

Sean of the Dead said:

How does one say "I don't like it"? The only thing I could think of was "My ny y gar" or something similar, but something tells me that can't be right. Maybe you would just leave out "y"? Also, why isn't the "kar" in the phrase "My a'th kar" mutated? I thought it should be, coming after "dha" but for some reason unknown to me it isn't.

Also, is this sentence correct?
"A gerydh skrifa yn feur y'n yethow [eses jy ow tyski]/[y tyskydh]?"
Do you like to write a lot in the languages you are learning/you learn?

Many many thanks for all of your continued help!



 

Ny'n karav.

The pronoun in a sentence like this is an infixed pronoun, not a possessive. Read paragraph 65 in A grammar of Modern Cornish. Also you use a personal verb in a negative sentence with a pronoun subject.

truru
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Post by truru » Thu May 06, 2010 7:36 pm

I don't like it:

- Nyns erov vy orth y gara
- Nyns yw da genev anodho
- Ny wrav vy y gara

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Thu May 06, 2010 9:01 pm

I suspect that in some cases 'us' in the texts may be for uzi with the i elided, as e.g. uzi'n / uz' yn (spell it how you like) for uzi yn, and possibly uz'ow for uzi ow etc. Since the texts often wrote 'us' for eus it's easy to see how the confusion in the grammars may have arisen. Well just my 2d's worth.

—-

Sean, object pronouns come between the particle and the verb :

Ty a'm kar (You love me), [ty] ny'm kerydh (You don't love me)

My a'th kar (I love thee), [my] ny'th karav (I love thee not)

My a'n kar (I love him/it), [my] ny'n karav (I don't like it, etc.)

Ty a's kar (You don't love/like her, it (f.) them) …

Hwi a'gan kar or Hwi a'n kar (You all love us) …

Ni a'gas kar or Ni a's kar (We love you all) …

Only 'th mutates, it has a 5th state mixed mutation. That is a soft mutation partly reversed by the voicelessness of the 'th' sound. The usual mutation from the particle is blocked. In Cornish I think all mutations require contact, unlike Welsh where mutations turn up with no visible cause.

 

Sean of the Dead
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Post by Sean of the Dead » Thu May 06, 2010 9:12 pm

factotum said:

Sean, object pronouns come between the particle and the verb :

Yes, thank you. After reading section 65 as recommended by Karesk, I understand them now, at least in theory. Before, I was unaware of a difference between "drefenn dha vos..." and "my a'th kar", but now I know.

Morvil
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Post by Morvil » Thu May 06, 2010 10:59 pm

Sean of the Dead said:

How does one say "I don't like it"?



 

Spontaneously I would have said:

Nag ew a da gena'ma. (LC based)

Nyns yw a da genev. (MC based)

Morvil
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Post by Morvil » Thu May 06, 2010 11:01 pm

factotum said:

I suspect that in some cases 'us' in the texts may be for uzi with the i elided, as e.g. uzi'n / uz' yn (spell it how you like) for uzi yn, and possibly uz'ow for uzi ow etc. Since the texts often wrote 'us' for eus it's easy to see how the confusion in the grammars may have arisen. Well just my 2d's worth.

 



 

And why exactly would usy elide before thethe in OM 1419?

Morvil
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Post by Morvil » Thu May 06, 2010 11:09 pm

Sean of the Dead said:

Also, is this sentence correct?

"A gerydh skrifa yn feur y'n yethow [eses jy ow tyski]/[y tyskydh]?"

Do you like to write a lot in the languages you are learning/you learn?

Many many thanks for all of your continued help!



 

"A gerydh scrifa yn feur y'n yethow/y'n tavosow esos (jy) ow tysky."

yth esov vy ow tysky and my a dhysk are not exactly synonymous with English "I am learning" and "I learn". While the former expresses something that is happening right now or something that happens around now or a general statement, the latter says something that happens from now on into a (indefinite) future.

So:

"A gerydh scrifa yn feur y'n tavosow a dhyskydh?" means "Do you love writing a lot/much in the languages you will learn (in future)."

I would have said something like:

"Yw da genes scrifa polta y'n tavosow es'ta ow tysky?"

Sean of the Dead
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Post by Sean of the Dead » Fri May 07, 2010 1:14 am

Actually, I originally said the part in the first set of brackets, but added the second as I am so used to languages (all but my own) not using the continuous, and instead the plain present indicative. But, what does "polta" mean, or what is it in KK?

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Fri May 07, 2010 2:54 pm

Before, I was unaware of a difference between "drefenn dha vos…" and "my a'th kar", but now I know.

Yes, the first one is confusing. Instead of saying 'because you are/were' the usual idiom is literally 'because (of) your being ...' This is the usual way to express the relative of 'to be' in the present and imperfect. (Welsh has the same idiom, so it probably goes back a long way, oddly Breton doesn't do this, or does it ???)

----

Teachers (war an ke). The irregularites in languages are almost always related to commonly used words, structures etc. (otherwise they'd soon be forgotten and levelled out). So if you introduce the most used and useful aspects of a language to students first, you'll inevitably be throwing them a high proportion of irregularities in the early stages, all mixed in with the regular forms. This might make it hard for them to see the regular patterns. (Above, Sean tried to generalise ... dha voz ..., thinking this was regular syntax). Is this a problem in practice, and if so how do you get round it when constructing courses etc. ?

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Fri May 07, 2010 3:02 pm

polta = 'quite a lot, a fair bit'. Possibly from pols da, 'a good time'. Same in KK, or pol'ta now, although I think that looks a bit messy and assumes the derivation which is probably uncertain.

 

----

Sean, I can't get the PM system to work on this site. Could you contact me on

kam@howlsedhes.co.uk

Thanks

 

Sean of the Dead
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Post by Sean of the Dead » Mon May 31, 2010 6:45 pm

I just wanted to post here to let you guys know I haven't stopped learning Cornish; I have been very busy with school over the past month, and haven't had the time (nor the will if I had the time) to study any languages, but in 3 weeks I get out of school, so I'll have tons of free time for learning languages, and hopefully I'll pick up my studies sometime this week or next. :lol:

Morvil
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Post by Morvil » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:07 am

Pur dha dhis!!!!

Sean of the Dead
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Re: Sjheiss a dhysk Kernewek

Post by Sean of the Dead » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:53 pm

How would one phrase something like "Have you ever..."? For example, "Have you ever been interested in learning Cornish?" Thanks. :)
Mar pleg, gwrewgh ewna ow hammwriansow Kernewek.

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