Medhes vs. Leverel

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Tennven
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Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Tennven » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:25 pm

Whats the difference? when do i use one and not the other?

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factotum
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by factotum » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:49 pm

Medhez doesn't even really exist in that form outside of textbooks. It has only one tense, and inflects for person and is used following quoted speech only, e.g. "Abarth an Jowl," yn-medh ev. You can use leverel here too if you wish. In the verse text you sometimes get things like Yn-medh ev, "my a vynn" 'quoth he, "I shall"', which is perhaps a little poetic, but that's a far as it goes. Really yn-medh, yn-medhav ... is just a short handy way of marking quotes.

carrek
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by carrek » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:55 pm

"medhes" is used when quoting speech, e.g. ""Na", yn medh ev" is ""No", he said".

"Leverel" is used in other situations, "Ev a wrug leverel "Na"" = He said "no". In most situations you would use "leverel" but for quoting speech in novels, for example, "yn medh" is used. It's a literary form.

Tennven
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Tennven » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:02 pm

thanks...

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Evertype
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Evertype » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:06 am

Is it a literary form? Or a narrative form?

Karesk
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Karesk » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:40 am

I don't know how much oral storytelling (as opposed to recitation of previously composed text) goes on in Cornish but it would be very good for the language if it did. I think "medhes" would be appropriate there.
Maybe all of these forms are archaic now. Perhaps the modern colloquial form should be Ev o kepar ha "...."

pietercharles
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by pietercharles » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:21 am

Karesk a skrifas:
Perhaps the modern colloquial form should be Ev o kepar ha "...."
Ogh ha tru! Nyns yw henna da, Karesk, selys war an Sowsnek dell yw.

Gwell via "hag ena ev a wra mos '....' ".

Pokorny
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Pokorny » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:12 pm

Karesk wrote:Perhaps the modern colloquial form should be Ev o kepar ha "...."
Valspeak Cornish?

Karesk
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Karesk » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:59 am

Pokorny wrote:
Karesk wrote:Perhaps the modern colloquial form should be Ev o kepar ha "...."
Valspeak Cornish?
Kowal

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Anselm
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Anselm » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:30 am

Yma hemma oll ow kul penn vy a-ji, yma.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
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Cornish Pirates

Karesk
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Karesk » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:09 pm

There is an expression "y dhyswul a-vann" in line 2469, or30.26 in George's numbering, that it could be possible to interpret as "to do his head in", although I'm not sure that's what it means.

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GanO
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by GanO » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:54 pm

Tennven,

There are quite a lot of really good grammar/course books and dictionaries that do rather a good job of answering basic questions like the ones you've been asking. Of course, your interest in the semantics/syntax/stylistics etc. of Cornish is most gratifying (and, by all means, to be encouraged!), but you might think of absorbing some of the basics that are dealt with in those resources. From my UC/UCR perspective, I can recommend any of the following (most of which are available from Spyrys a Gernow). Others, I'm sure, might suggest further books that they favour.

For dictionaries:
-- Robert Morton Nance's dictionaries (UC). There's a very good, affordable 'Memorial Edition' which combines his 1938 C-E and 1952 E-C ones. Lots of examples, paradigms, quotes from the historical corpus in the '38 part.
-- Nicholas Williams' 2006 E-C dictionary (UCR) has some excellent explanations in it, and quite a lot of useful neologisms for modern technology. Lots of appendices of specialist vocab, verb and preposition paradigms etc. You might not agree with all his views, but this scholar has to be taken seriously.

As for grammar/course books, I often use the following:
-- Cornish Simplified (2 vols) ASD Smith (UC)
-- Cornish for All (UC). RM Nance. This is the one that kick-started the Revival way back in the 1920s. Out of print, but still available 2nd hand. Includes a UC transcription of the Late Cornish folk tail 'Jowan Chy an Horth'
-- Kernewek Bew (UC). Richard Gendall (out of print, but still available 2nd hand)
-- Cornish for Beginners (UC). PAS Pool
-- Clappya Kernewek (UCR). NJA Williams
-- Skeul an Tavas (KS, SWF/T, SWF/M). Ray Chubb

By contrast, William Brown's 'Grammar of Modern Cornish' (even in its original UC edition) is appallingly written and riddled with errors. I actually like grammar books, but this one is about the best sedative I know!

ps. Please don't take this as a put-down. Just keep those questions coming!
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

Tennven
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Tennven » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:25 pm

Thanks for the encouragement.

Most of the time I ask questions I sort of know the answer too, or sometimes I'm just a little hazy on... most of my questions are aimed at initiating interesting discussion... of which theres been a few... at least briefly.

p.s. I agree the wella's book is about as readable as a Finnegans wake, and half as interesting... I suppose it kind of works as a reference book, but not easy enough to navigate through for that!... Still, far better than I can do, and by far the most complete grammar book I've seen. Long over due a re-qrite I'm sure!

I have P.A.S. Pools Cornish for beginners, the book is getting a little beaten up now though... so I've copied a few lessons from it onto my Computer and added extra examples (obviously for my own use, wouldn't want to infringe anyones copyright! just trying to save my book from dying!)... I feel this is a very useful book, and well worth an update into SWF(t). Also have Skeul an tavas, my one critiscm is that it wasn't long enough... or go far enough...

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Marhak
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Marhak » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:05 pm

Is Cornish a bit restricted here, or is it not? Any work of fiction in English will have countless words to describe speech. "Can Cornish do the same?" he enquired. "Of course it bloody can!" thundered the professor. "I only asked," the pupil whined. Can Cornish produce a smilar range of speech verbs?

Karesk
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Karesk » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:19 am

How about we try to list the ones we know here, never mind the spelling. I can think of kewsel/cowsel, hwystra, klappya, garma, kria, govynn to start with.

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