Medhes vs. Leverel

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GanO
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by GanO » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:51 pm

spencer a-n-gwruk wrote:
A question related to the medhes/leverel 'reporting' type verbs that can introduce a reported, dependent clause: how does one say : ' I wonder if ...' ' I wonder what..' etc ?
As a conversational tag for a rhetorical question, the expression I've heard is "my a omwovyn". You can add this to the end of a simple question, and thereby avoid the complexities of conditional clauses, e.g.

"Py par cath yu honna, my a omwovyn?" (What sort of cat is that, I wonder?)
"A vyn Jowan dos dhe'n dywotty genyn-ny haneth, my a omwovyn?" (Will Jowan come to the pub with us tonight, I wonder?

As Nance (1955) points out, though, 'wonder' can also be used in other contexts:
puzzlement/surprise:"Marth a'm bus anodho"/"Marth yu genef anodho." (I wonder at him)
uncertainty: "Dowt dhym yma na vova gwyr." (I wonder whether it's true). Note that the use of the subjunctive suggests that I think it's unlikely to be true; the English would be more accurate perhaps if it read '...if it might be true'
confirming a prediction: "Nyns yu marth kyn fo ..." (No wonder that it is ...)

Again, the subjunctive suggests it might not be so; for a more definite statement, I'd use:
"Nyns yu marth bos ..."

Williams (2006) adds:
ignorance: "Hy a vyn govyn orty hy honen pleth eson ny." (She'll be wondering where we are)literally, 'she'll be asking herself ...'
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
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"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

spencer a-n-gwruk
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by spencer a-n-gwruk » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:43 pm

Muer Ras, Gano!

Helpful advice, there..and it reminds me of the old fashioned English subjunctive- ' whether it BE nobler in the mind..'

Is there a hard and fast distinction between the conditional and sunjunctive moods or do they overlap?

Karesk
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Karesk » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:31 pm

Mar kwrelles mires orth neb gramer, y hwrusses kavoes gorthyp ena. Wella Brown re skrifas y lyver may hwrella dha weres. Ena re gyffi an pyth a hwilydh. Da via genes y redya.

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GanO
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by GanO » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:36 am

Mar caffes ha'y redya hep codha yn cusc, ass vya marth bras! Otomma hep mar an lyfer gramasek moyha sqythus a welys bythqueth.
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
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"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

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Anselm
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Anselm » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:02 am

A common one I've heard is "Dhe wodhvos ..." followed by the subjunctive,
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

Karesk
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Karesk » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:38 am

Heb mar, yth yw Caradar moy es ages Brown dh'y redya, mes moy kales dhe gavoes an pyth a hwilydh ena. Skrifys veu rag dyski ader del gramer. Yma edhom dhyn ny a gramer nowydh martesen, mes an den a'n skrif a wra kavoes kemmys arvedhennow ha Wella wosa kemmys poenvos. Ha ni ow pesya tebeldyghtya ober agan keskernegeworyon, y fydh aga askorrans fest boghes.

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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Karesk » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:40 pm

I have an idea, but I don't know how feasible it is and I wouldn't know how to go about making it happen. Would it be possible to set up a site on the web where questions about grammar and usage could be submitted and referenced under a head word, and where anyone could submit an answer giving their opinion and the basis for it. eg if I'm not sure about the right construction to use with "kemmys", I could ask that under that heading, having first checked it hasn't already been asked. Cross-referencing would be possible. (a bit like wikipedia but with room for as many alternative answers as anyone wanted to submit). That would give the possibility of building a resource that would be easy to refer to and give people the information to decide what usage they will follow on whatever basis they feel is valid, eg it's recommended by someone they trust, it's commonly used in the revival, it's attested in the texts from a given period.
It could work, if plenty of people would submit questions and answers, and if people would stick to giving their opinions and their reasons for them without arguing against other opinions.
People are often willing to ask and answer questions here, it would be similar but organised for permanent reference.
Is it possible, would it be useful, would anyone be willing and able to do the work to set it up and maintain it?

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GanO
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by GanO » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:32 pm

Karesk wrote:
Is it possible, would it be useful, would anyone be willing and able to do the work to set it up and maintain it?
Look in the mirror, Karesk, and ask the question again. If the answer is 'yes', then your project has the green light!
:)
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

Karesk
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Karesk » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:03 pm

If I knew how to do it, I would.

spencer a-n-gwruk
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by spencer a-n-gwruk » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:13 pm

Karesk's idea for a specific grammar forum is a good one. Very exciting if it could be set up as he envisages it! Many of us learners tend to be isolated from other speakers/leaners for large parts of the year and even with more than the average number of grammar books and other Cornish material it is often very frustrating trying to pin down the answer to points finer ( or obscure!)
My latest challenge is trying to work out how to translate:' I'm BORED with this game.' I suspect it will involve 'squyth' but am not sure. ' I'm tired of waiting.' ' I'm bored out of my skull.'

Pokorny
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Pokorny » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:20 pm

I don't know if someone is going to set up a Cornish grammar wiki, but in the meantime I'd like to invite everybody interested to the Kernewegva forum which was originally intended to serve a similar purpose. There has been little activity in the last months, but we will hopefully be able to get it going again.

http://www.kernewegva.com/forum/index.php

Karesk
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Karesk » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:53 pm

I would like to see that happen. I will go there next time I have something relevant to say.

spencer a-n-gwruk
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by spencer a-n-gwruk » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:04 pm

Me, too, Karesk! Just registered with them.

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Anselm
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Anselm » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:43 pm

Y fia da genev dehweles di, yn gwiryonedh.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Evertype
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Re: Medhes vs. Leverel

Post by Evertype » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:05 am

Read the texts, folks.

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