Holyer an Gof, 2010

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Marhak
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Marhak » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:16 pm

The Gorseth was set up by Jenner to help establish Cornwall's place in the Celtic world. He achieved that. What the Gorseth needs to do, in my opinion at least, is to emphasise Cornwall's place in the modern world. Some recent Grand Bards, particularly Rod Lyon, went some way towards that, but it needs more.

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Kevrenor
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Kevrenor » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:24 pm

factotum wrote:The Gorseth dwells far away in the mists of 1930's (or 1900's?) pseudo-celtic be-robed and kilted quaintness --- an arcane gerontocracy that lost the plot twenty years ago at least. Time to look forward, not back, but that may be the subject for another thread.
You don't half sweet talk us Bards do you...

Evertype, why not write to the Bardic Council (maybe c/o Grand Bard Mick Paynter) and ask?

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Pokorny » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:24 pm

Karesk wrote:Competitions and prizes are one way to encourage writing, and someone, berobed and kilted or otherwise, has to organise them. An Gernewegva website ran one which Nicholas Williams won. How about a Cornwall 24 prize for the most insulting diatribe in Cornish (any target acceptable)?
This seems like a good time to once again draw attention to Matthi Clarke's brilliant compilation of Cornish insults, sexually loaded slang terms, and swear words which An Gernewegva is proud to host at:

http://www.kernewegva.com/mollethi.html

carrek
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by carrek » Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:39 pm

factotum wrote:The Gorseth dwells far away in the mists of 1930's (or 1900's?) pseudo-celtic be-robed and kilted quaintness --- an arcane gerontocracy that lost the plot twenty years ago at least. Time to look forward, not back, but that may be the subject for another thread.
And who appointed you as arbiter of all things forward-looking?

Typical English attitude, "The only way somewhere can become more modern is to ditch their culture and be more like us"

Karesk
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Karesk » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:35 pm

Marhak wrote:OOOH! Can I enter?
Na yllydh. Ty a vydh eskes may kevyn ni oll erell chons.

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Marhak
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Marhak » Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:38 pm

Aw, bum!

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Evertype
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Evertype » Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:46 pm

factotum wrote:Curiouser and curiouser (to coin a phrase, wonder how that sounds in Vole-puke?)
Nulälikum e nulälikum.
Micheal,
Michael.
are you really so insecure that you throw a tantric tantrum every time you fail to win a prize?
No. I'm not "insecure" at all. What I am is discomfitted to observe what appears to be blatant bias in an organization which prides itself on honour and fairness. I did not throw a tantrum, tantric or otherwise. I considered the matter for four weeks, in fact. And then I published my criticism.
Odd. You sit on this and that international committee for the crossing of t's and to standardise the shape of the dots on i's, you are an established typesetter, font designer and publisher (and a good one IMHO), and no doubt have many other accomplishments that you're proud of,
Indeed.
and of which I (thankfully)
:roll:
know nothing whatever. All this, mark, regardless of the worth or otherwise of your dabbling in our language.
I think my editing and publishing the UCR dictionary, the four books about KK and Revived Cornish which appeared during the Commission process, my new edition of Jenner, and the numerous books in Cornish which I have published qualify as more than "dabbling", Keith. On the other hand, what have you accomplished, apart from "discover" a "new phoneme" on the basis of a dodgy understanding of medieval orthographic practices, and an unfailing belief that a reconstructed conlang-Cornish is better than a revived language based on real Cornish? Does that qualify you as more the a dabbler?
Add to that your comtempt for the Language Board, reiterated above,
The Language Board has yet to show that it is anything but a KK factionalist club.
and I wonder why the decision of a Gorseth offshoot should so excite you.
Who said I was excited? I am disappointed in the Holyer an Gof committee more than anything else. Not for my sake—but for the sake of the honourableness of the Gorseth and its competitions. The withholding of prizes of High Commendation and Commendation from the Cornish Language Section this year was a demonstration of bias. The Gorseth should aim higher.
Remember, the CLB is the nearest thing we have to a native institution to regulate the language.
The CLB hath not the competence.
It is elected by those active users of Cornish who for a few quid annually belong to the Kowethas --- which is most of them.
It is a subcommittee of the Cowethas, which is a private club that has for years rejected anything but KK. Its lip service to UC would have been credible had they agreed to recognize UCR. But they were (evidently) afraid of UCR and would not "grant" it status, as if they had the "authority" to do so.
That a minority chose to forgo this opportunity and actively disenfranchise themselves, is really their affair.
We choose not to give a money to an organization which does not give its support to us or to our views about the value of Traditional Cornish.
But the Gorseth is not remotely democratic, it is a self-selected and self-perpetuating pseudo-masonic lodge.
I have more respect for the Gorseth than you do.
It's
Its
interest in the language is largely symbolic and ceremonial.
Whereas your interest in the language is to make it something it was not.
It is answerable to no-one but it's own closed membership. It is of course free to do whatever it likes, (and may or may not be judged an asset to Cornwall and Cornish identity). It is free to decide as it wishes, and we are free to ignore it's decisions if we disagree --- since it does not represent us (neither of us being bards).
And we are free to point out unfairness and bias when there seems to be reasonable grounds to do so. The Gorseth may be a private club, but it has a public face, and it acts in public in order to be seen and to raise the awareness of the importance of things Cornish. This year, in other categories, both High Commendations and Commendations were given. In previous years, both High Commendations and Commendations were given in the Cornish-language section. Since my books, and the books put forward by Agan Tavas and Spyrys a Gernow (and perhaps others, I do not know), are actually examples of extended texts in good Cornish attractively presented, it is not at all unreasonable to wonder at the reasons that neither High Commendations nor Commendations were given this year.

And the answer that seems to explain it is "bias". Completely unnecessary. And damaging to the Revival. You may not like Alys in Pow an Anethow, Keith, but it's a great book, and translated into good Cornish, in an orthography which derogates from the SWF but which is based on the same principles. Should it have been snubbed?
Why then make a fuss --- "Bad Loser Syndrome" ???
Because I respect the Gorseth, and this year it appears that they did something unworthy of respect. I raise the issue so that members of that organization can know how their activity appears to outsiders.

And I have said, I never expected to "win". I was sure that politics would play a part, as clearly it did. I expected to "place", however. Instead, no runners-up were mentioned. That's suppression.
It should also be noted that two of your strongest supporters, NJA Williams, and Craig here, are two out of only three (IIRC?) individuals ever to leave the Gorseth ere shedding the mortal coil. Clearly they have a rather low opinion of that body, to say the very least.
Both were made bards because of their achievements. They are still bards. If they have chosen to stop paying their dues in protest at actions of the Gorseth, that is another matter.
As far as spelling goes, the fallout from the 'Process' is that KK has retained it's position(*);
By which you mean that the Cowethas and Kesva continue to support it. Those of us who did not support KK still do not do so.
the SWF(main) has displaced UC(*); and has become the official form as far as the Council goes (not in practice very far at all!)
I'm happier the Gorseth supports the SWF than KK. At least it tries to be Cornish.
And FWIW a few Late users seem to have at least flirted with the SWF.
That's because the SWF is not really suitable for writing RLC, because it was hobbled by politics.
UCR was only actively used by two or three people, and all the indications are that it's misshapen sucessor, KS, will receive the same rapturous reception --- if you can ever agree over what it is, for the moment it retains its shaky grip on a dozen or so supporters by being "all things to all men".
Your use of the adjective "misshapen" betrays your ignorance of KS entirely. But of course it would.
So while I really have no idea how the HanG committee functions, I would guess that KS has been ignored by them because it is ignored by all the other language bodies, apart of course from Agan Tavas.
You might guess that. But in the application form for Holyer an Gof, there are no stipulations as to which orthographies are acceptable and which are not. So your guess isn't worth very much. Or, perhaps, there was bias in this year's competition on the basis of unpublished criteria.
If you really want everyone to have prizes, then why not arrange for AT to hand them out? Shouldn't be too hard to arrange, surely? While they're at it they could organise their own exams too, produce a dictionary, etc., etc.
Reductio ad absurdum, Keith? It isn't about "prizes". It's about expecting a competition not to be biased. Since you have no respect for the Gorseth, I guess you don't care. I do.
(*) Before the Process, the CLB supported KK but gave legacy support to UC. The more conservative Gorseth used UC, but acknowledged the existence of KK as the majority form and accepted KK entries in competitions etc. Following the Process, The CLB is now well into phasing out UC support, having adopted the SWF Main Form in place of UC as its alternative system for exams etc. KK remaining the preferred form. The Gorseth, while still acknowledging that most writers use KK, has now adopted the SWF Main Form as its official orthography, ditching UC.
Keith, a lot of us really don't care what the CLB does. It doesn't represent the interests of those who appreciate and respect Traditional Cornish. It's just a private club (no, sorry, a subcommittee of a private club). It's made up of individuals, which is fine. You've claimed that I and others must interact with it as some sort of formal body. But it has no mandate, and it is not a body which enjoys public enfranchisement, much as you claim that it does. The fact that it would not allow Agan Tavas to choose its own representatives to the AHG says more than enough about its respectibility.
The overall result therefore is that UC is effectively obsolete. This is a pity because there is an established revival literature in UC, it is stable ('set in stone' in fact), and well resourced with a still very useful dictionary etc.
You say this, and it has always puzzled me. You know and I know that unreformed UC has linguistic shortcomings, such as the way it writes voiceless consonants after many of its monosyllables with long vowels, or the way it misses the phoneme /ø/. UCR, of course corrected that, but you've never had a good word to say about UCR. Why? Oh, yes, because its devisor rejected KK and pointed out its flaws.
Its replacement, the SWF, will not be in an equivalent position for many years to come if ever. Only massive government support for the language could change this, and there is not real expectation of much beyond lip-service.
For our part, Nicholas and I and some others readily acknowledged our willingness to give up UCR for something better. KS1 was better. The SWF is in part better, but has inconsistencies which hobble it. That is why we corrected those inconsistencies and are using the result. And we have not had the benefit of government funding, massive or otherwise.

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Anselm
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Anselm » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:04 pm

Keith - nyns esov ow leverel nag eus elvennow krev a wiryonedh 'th kuhudhansow erbynn an Orsedh. Byttegens ytho yma an ros ow talleth tri y'n eur ma hag yn=sur y fydh howl arta war run.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

carrek
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by carrek » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:21 pm

The Kesva has been usurped by the Cornish Language Partnership, and rightly so. A body truly representative of all Cornish speakers that operates in the spirit of co-operation, and which has done some excellent work since it started, and continues to do so.

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Kevrenor
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Kevrenor » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:38 pm

Last edited by Kevrenor on Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Evertype
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Evertype » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:03 pm

I note that
Class 1: Mordon Caradar Rose Bowl
(Gwersyow Yn Kernewek)

1st: Philip Chadwick (London)

Question: Is Philip the only person who entered in this category?

Answer: He is not. There should have been at least a second prize or a commendation for at least one other poem.

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factotum
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by factotum » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:29 am

Sorry, this perhaps was not the place to start Gorseth bashing. FWIW, I acknowledge the central and vital role of the Gorseth in putting Cornwall and the Cornish language on the map during the first half of the C20. I'm also sure that its members mean well. Unfortunately, I believe that its failure to reinvent itself as time passes (the Welsh and Breton Gorsedh's have done that more than once over the years) has made it largely irrelevant. Indeed it may even be doing some damage by projecting a very arcane and dated image. However that is by the way.

My point was simply that Micheal is happy to ignore decisions of the Language Board, (which does at least attempt to be democratic), as unrepresentative, so logically he should equally dismiss any decisions of the Gorseth, since this body is not in the least representative, nor has it ever claimed to be.

I must also ask Micheal, if he'd bothered to contact the Gorseth or HanG committee for an explanation, before making his public denouncement. If he did, could we please see their response. It's hardly fair that they be judged publically on what you or I think might have been their motives, without first allowing them to explain themselves.

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Anselm
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Anselm » Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:52 am

Yn-sur yth hevel bones Vab Vynitha ow leski y bonsow yn kever Kernow. Y fydh hi por hwarthus mars assay an gwas truan an keth gisyow anhwar yn kever Kembra. Yma degveyns aga niver i, yma gansa moy a arghans, hag yth yw aga yeth i kreffa. Pan gavas ev troen goesek owth assaya y gastoo koynt er agan pynn ni, erbynn an Gembryon mars assay ef y hwra ev kavos troen goesek, dewlagas du, ha bolghow bras mayth esa y dheyns.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Evertype
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Evertype » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:36 pm

factotum wrote:My point was simply that Micheal
Michael. It is spelt "Michael". In Irish it is Mícheál, with acute accents, and I am not addressed as such unless in Irish. Do try harder, Kieth. :roll:
is happy to ignore decisions of the Language Board,
Why should I be interested in the decisions of the Language Board?
(which does at least attempt to be democratic), as unrepresentative,
It is unrepresentative. It has no public mandate. It is the subcommittee of a private club. It doesn't represent my interests as a member of the Revival, for instance. If it did, it wouldn't support KK. Instead, it actively works against the interests of those who prefer Traditional Cornish.
so logically
Evidently you have a fairly simplistic view of logic.
he should equally dismiss any decisions of the Gorseth, since this body is not in the least representative, nor has it ever claimed to be.
I think that the claims of the Kesva's "democraticness" are rather bogus. indeed, I believe we see the heavy hand of the Kesva in this year's awards, however. Otherwise one might have expected to see High Commendations or Commendations in Holyer an Gof, and second prizes or commendations in the Gorseth awards. Instead, we see a rather obvious omission of runners-up, when in the past runners-up have been recognized.

It is because I respect the Gorseth that I have raised this issue publicly.
I must also ask Micheal if he'd bothered to contact the Gorseth or HanG committee for an explanation, before making his public denouncement. If he did, could we please see their response. It's hardly fair that they be judged publically on what you or I think might have been their motives, without first allowing them to explain themselves.
No, I did not contact them in advance. When I published my posting to Spellyans and here, I also copied a number of bards whose e-mail addresses I had. All this was done after several weeks of consideration. I thought, and think, that it is important that members of the Gorseth know about a matter of public perception.

I received a message from the chair of the Holyer an Gof committe that they would consider my letters next month. I wrote back and suggested that they should not act as their own complaints committee, and suggested that the matter be taken up by the Gorseth Council.

For the record, I have not made a denouncement. I have made a complaint. That complaint is based on my judgement, and your suggestion that it is "unfair" for me to publish my opinions is a bit silly. The Gorseth operates in public, and made its awards in public. The awards in other categories this year and in the Cornish-language category in previous years recognized merit in other submissions. SInce this year's Cornish-language category differed from previous practice, that is in effect a public statement by the Gorseth that no other submissions had any merit. I think this is wrong, and I have said so in public, and I do not regret doing so. I have made an accusation of bias, and that needs to be addressed.

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factotum
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by factotum » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:33 pm

Michael, your replies make no sense. Why do you respect the Gorseth and not the Kesva/Kowethas? The first is a closed self-selecting body, which apart from the spending of any public money it may receive, it not answerable to anyone beyond its own exclusive membership. The Kowethas is also a private club, but its membership is and always has been open to anyone on payment of a few quid per annum. It is also a registered charity (not sure if the Gorseth is?). So any objections you have regarding the Kesva/Kowethas must also apply to the Gorseth, indeed with knobs on.

Looking at the list of winners etc on the Gorseth website, I see generally two enteries in each category with some exceptions in the more popular English language contests. It looks therefore as though having chosen two joint winners in the Cornish language contest, the judges saw no need to include any runners-up. The slot had as it were been taken. But that is simply my interpretation. We don't know the official explanation, since you didn't bother to ask for it before going public.

The normal, polite and acceptable apporach would have been to have sought an explanation privately (there may be a very simple reason, or indeed it may simply have been an oversight) before sounding off in public. They have had no chance to explain, apologise, make amends or anything else. Indeed your behaviour is almost guaranteed to antagonise them.

This is a carbon copy of the way you went into print over the poor technical quality of many KK publications, without making any attempt to discuss the matter with the persons and organisations responsible. This produced (a) resentment, and (b) a bunker attitude, making them disinclined to listen to my own and others' internal advice and criticism. But no doubt this was exactly you intention --- wrecking tactics.

In any case you know fullwell that the Gorseth never recognised UCR in its competitions, the very reason, I understand, for Williams' resignation. They probably consider KS to be equally divisive, but why not let them answer for themselves?

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