Holyer an Gof, 2010

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Evertype
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Evertype » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:00 pm

Karesk wrote:Your books I have read are Alys and Jowal Lethesow. I enjoyed reading them. I'm not qualified to say whether they deserved a prize as writing in Cornish.
I do love Alice. I don't know if you know it, but my experience with Alice in Irish and Cornish has led me to publish it in many other languages. English, Esperanto, French, German, Manx, and Welsh are out. Danish, Italian, Latin, Low German, Scots (not Scottish Gaelic), Swedish, and Ulster Scots are in preparation. I have hopes for an Interlingua Alice, and would love to see a n Alice in Volapük, though that may be asking a lot. I've encouraged Nicholas to think about doing Through the Looking-Glass in Cornish. It's harder to translate than Alice, but he did both of them in Irish and his translation is excellent.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Evertype » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:15 pm

Mike wrote:"I would agree with Karesk, some might say supporting KS is divisive".
Yes, of course it is; it's superfluous and a recent invention to try and replace the failings of UCR.
That's not correct. It might be your opinion, but I don't think that's an informed opinion.

UCR corrected linguistic failings in UC that many (including Talek and Ken George and others) had identified. It corrected those failings admirably. The chief political "failing" of UCR, of course was the concurrant criticism of the linguistic problems with KK. Naturally the Kesva (at the time pretending to run the Revival) refused to countenance it, and insisted that only unreformed UC and KK could be "permitted". (Of course they took no notice of RLC.)

KS1, the draft that was developed jointly between UC/R and RLC users (no KK user wished to participate, because KK of course was perfect and the Commissioners would surely choose KK), bridged the gap between RMC and RLC for the first time since Jenner. The SWF options for what I write as bÿs/bës and yth esof vy/th'erof vy was a part of that process (KS1 wrote beis for the first, following Jordan). KS1 preserved Traditional Orthographic forms, but endeavoured to have a strong connection between sound (the real sounds of Revived Cornish, not a fanciful unproved reconstruction) and spelling. Yes, that went beyond what UCR did—but that work was done before the SWF was devised. After the SWF was devised, we examined it, found much good in it, but also found problems that needed to be addressed. KS addresses them.

That's not "divisive". It's caring about more than politics.
It goes against all that the last few years have tried to circumvent. It's one of the reasons why we are continually phuc*ed language-wise.
It's hard to imagine why you would have us ignore the linguistics just because a largely political process produced an orthography that the CLP is obliged to use till 2013. It's great that the CLP has that. But they aren't producing literature. Where's their 60,000-word novel in the SWF?

And yes, "Mike", if I'm going to plunk down my hard-earned cash to produce books in Cornish, I'm going to do it in an orthography that I consider to be worthy of the investment.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Karesk » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:38 pm

The Alice books are certainly amazing creations, but if I had to go to a desert island with just one "children's" book. it might well be Le Petit Prince, so I'm looking forward to getting my copy of the new Cornish version (see the MAGA website).

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Evertype » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:47 pm

I've never been fond of The Little Prince. I guess it's one of those things, you either grow up with it or you don't. I didn't and the text leaves me cold.

This does not mean I disapprove of the book's appearance in Cornish. Of course.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Marhak » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:48 pm

KS adapted to the SWF, taking on a number of its features we thought to be good. It didn't, however, adopt those we thought to be faulty. It makes a decent attempt to rectify those faults with the 2013 review in mind. KS does not exist in opposition to the SWF, it's there to compliment it.

One of Michael's productions is well worth getting hold of: Adro dhe'n Bys in Peswar Ugans Dedh is an abridged translation, aimed at the young, translated by Cornwall's oldest living Cornish speaker, Kaspar Hocking (father of past Grand Bard Vanessa Beeman) and, of course a book by one of the world's most famous and respected 19th century authors (of Breton birth and family - if Cornish, his surmane would have been Warne).

Another, for even younger readers, is Eddie Climo's primer, Kensa Lyver Redya.

I could even mention the fabulous translation of my 63,000 word novel The Lyonesse Stone (as Jowal Lethesow - has a novel of this length ever been produced in Cornish before?), or Andy Phillips's daily prayer book: Lyver Pejadow rag Kenyver Jorna.

Plus other very worthy productions which were also entered (I won't count my novel Nautilus here - I can understand that it did not contain enough Cornish content to be considered, which is fair enough).

Of all the various categories in this year's Holyer an Gof awards, only the Cornish language class was devoid of High Commendations or Commendations, and at least one of Michael's entries merited one of those. Why no commendations in this single category? It's that which looks odd and invites speculation.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Anselm » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:01 am

It's all a plot.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Marhak » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:12 am

Do you think so?

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Karesk » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:13 am

"An Pennsevik Byhan" a elow orth ow holonn, "Alys" orth ow ympynnion. Y koedh dhym aga maga aga dew.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Anselm » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:51 pm

Craig - of COURSE it's a plot. It's a well-known fact that the little green men from Roswell, under the direction of the Jesuits and the Freemasons, removed one county from Wales every hundred years, blew up the courthouse in St. Austell with a device fuelled with the excrement of killer bees, and abducted 35,000 fluent UC speakers to the planet Zborg just before the crucial rigged meeting at Truro/Falmouth/Bodmin [delete to taste] in 1985/1986/1987/1988/1989 [delete to taste], thus enabling a clique of chartered accountants to take over the Cornish-language book market and acquire wealth beyond the dreams of avarice.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Marhak » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:24 pm

Oh, I was wondering what you were getting at. Your eccentricity grows by the day.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by factotum » Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:32 am

Curiouser and curiouser (to coin a phrase, wonder how that sounds in Vole-puke?)

Micheal, are you really so insecure that you throw a tantric tantrum every time you fail to win a prize? Odd. You sit on this and that international committee for the crossing of t's and to standardise the shape of the dots on i's, you are an established typesetter, font designer and publisher (and a good one IMHO), and no doubt have many other accomplishments that you're proud of, and of which I (thankfully) know nothing whatever. All this, mark, regardless of the worth or otherwise of your dabbling in our language.

Add to that your comtempt for the Language Board, reiterated above, and I wonder why the decision of a Gorseth offshoot should so excite you. Remember, the CLB is the nearest thing we have to a native institution to regulate the language. It is elected by those active users of Cornish who for a few quid annually belong to the Kowethas --- which is most of them. That a minority chose to forgo this opportunity and actively disenfranchise themselves, is really their affair. But the Gorseth is not remotely democratic, it is a self-selected and self-perpetuating pseudo-masonic lodge. It's interest in the language is largely symbolic and ceremonial. It is answerable to no-one but it's own closed membership. It is of course free to do whatever it likes, (and may or may not be judged an asset to Cornwall and Cornish identity). It is free to decide as it wishes, and we are free to ignore it's decisions if we disagree --- since it does not represent us (neither of us being bards).

Why then make a fuss --- "Bad Loser Syndrome" ???

It should also be noted that two of your strongest supporters, NJA Williams, and Craig here, are two out of only three (IIRC?) individuals ever to leave the Gorseth ere shedding the mortal coil. Clearly they have a rather low opinion of that body, to say the very least.

As far as spelling goes, the fallout from the 'Process' is that KK has retained it's position(*); the SWF(main) has displaced UC(*); and has become the official form as far as the Council goes (not in practice very far at all!) And FWIW a few Late users seem to have at least flirted with the SWF. UCR was only actively used by two or three people, and all the indications are that it's misshapen sucessor, KS, will receive the same rapturous reception --- if you can ever agree over what it is, for the moment it retains its shaky grip on a dozen or so supporters by being "all things to all men".

So while I really have no idea how the HanG committee functions, I would guess that KS has been ignored by them because it is ignored by all the other language bodies, apart of course from Agan Tavas. If you really want everyone to have prizes, then why not arrange for AT to hand them out? Shouldn't be too hard to arrange, surely? While they're at it they could organise their own exams too, produce a dictionary, etc., etc.

---------

(*) Before the Process, the CLB supported KK but gave legacy support to UC. The more conservative Gorseth used UC, but acknowledged the existence of KK as the majority form and accepted KK entries in competitions etc. Following the Process, The CLB is now well into phasing out UC support, having adopted the SWF Main Form in place of UC as its alternative system for exams etc. KK remaining the preferred form. The Gorseth, while still acknowledging that most writers use KK, has now adopted the SWF Main Form as its official orthography, ditching UC.

The overall result therefore is that UC is effectively obsolete. This is a pity because there is an established revival literature in UC, it is stable ('set in stone' in fact), and well resourced with a still very useful dictionary etc. Its replacement, the SWF, will not be in an equivalent position for many years to come if ever. Only massive government support for the language could change this, and there is not real expectation of much beyond lip-service.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Marhak » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:14 am

Do remember, Keith, that one of my books (Cornovia - Ancient Sites of Cornwall & Scilly 4000 BC - 1000AD) was awarded a Commendation in this years Holyer an Gof, so "bad loser" or "low opinion" of the Gorseth hardly applies. Yes, I had an extremely low opinion of the Gorseth Council and Grand Bard in the mid-late 90s. That does not mean that the same applies now. I am on extremely good terms with a great many bards, including several former and present Grand Bards and, indeed, if my opinion of the Gorseth was still as low as it was back then, I would hardly have entered this awards competition.

You missed the important question here, in your haste to castigate Michael. There were a great many entries in the Cornish Language category of Holyer an Gof. Why, then, was it the only category not to have included Commendations and High Commendations? In my view, more than one of Michael's publications merited consideration for these. All the other categories did and, indeed, my book benefitted accordingly. The omission certainly raises eyebrows as well as questions.

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factotum
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by factotum » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:43 am

Well, don't ask me, ask your Bardic cronies. Clearly you and your friends have less influence in concentric circles than you imagine. But the real point is, who cares these days? The Gorseth dwells far away in the mists of 1930's (or 1900's?) pseudo-celtic be-robed and kilted quaintness --- an arcane gerontocracy that lost the plot twenty years ago at least. Time to look forward, not back, but that may be the subject for another thread.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Karesk » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:56 am

Competitions and prizes are one way to encourage writing, and someone, berobed and kilted or otherwise, has to organise them. An Gernewegva website ran one which Nicholas Williams won. How about a Cornwall 24 prize for the most insulting diatribe in Cornish (any target acceptable)?

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Marhak » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:11 pm

OOOH! Can I enter?

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