Holyer an Gof, 2010

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Evertype
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Evertype » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:47 pm

factotum wrote:Michael, your replies make no sense.
No, you just want to try to take it and make into something it isn't.
Why do you respect the Gorseth and not the Kesva/Kowethas?
Because the Gorseth is a group of people who have Cornwall's interests at heart. The Kesva is composed of people who support a construed form of Cornish which implements an aesthetic which rejects the Traditions of Cornwall. Moreover, it has for twenty years attempted to suppress and denigrate anyone who rejected, criticized, or opposed that construal.
The first is a closed self-selecting body, which apart from the spending of any public money it may receive, it not answerable to anyone beyond its own exclusive membership.
Yes, I know. I have asked them to answer a complaint, however.
The Kowethas is also a private club, but its membership is and always has been open to anyone on payment of a few quid per annum.
Some of us won't pay money to an organization as descriminatory as the Cowethas is. I remind you that despite the fact that the Commissioners said that each faction should choose its own representatives to the AHG, the Cowethas and Kesva refused to allow Agan Tavas' choice.
It is also a registered charity (not sure if the Gorseth is?).
Irrelevant.
So any objections you have regarding the Kesva/Kowethas must also apply to the Gorseth, indeed with knobs on.
All I see here is you blathering about trying to put the Kesva and Gorseth on the same level. It has nothing to do with my complaint.
Looking at the list of winners etc on the Gorseth website, I see generally two enteries in each category with some exceptions in the more popular English language contests.
In previous years the Cornish-language section had winners and runners-up. I maintain my view that this year's selection—and the conspicuous absence of runners-up—reflects a biased intent to support the Kesva and Cowethas only and to say to the world that no other books of merit appeared in the Cornish language in 2009.
It looks therefore as though having chosen two joint winners in the Cornish language contest, the judges saw no need to include any runners-up.
And so decided to exclude mention of a 60,000-word novel among other publications? Sorry, Keith. I don't believe that.
The slot had as it were been taken.
You would have us believe that there is a quota of awards?
But that is simply my interpretation. We don't know the official explanation, since you didn't bother to ask for it before going public.
I reject your view that I am or was or should have been obliged to deal with this matter by keeping it secret. As I have said, the Gorseth operates in public, and this year, in my view, they have done the Revival a disservice.
The normal, polite and acceptable apporach would have been to have sought an explanation privately (there may be a very simple reason, or indeed it may simply have been an oversight) before sounding off in public. They have had no chance to explain, apologise, make amends or anything else. Indeed your behaviour is almost guaranteed to antagonise them.
I disagree with your view. I am regularly the recipient of abuse and dismissal and hostility from a number of people who support KK, who wanted the Commissioners to choose KK, who assumed indeed that the Commissioners would choose KK, and who would, I am sure, like nothing better than for those of us publishing with Traditional Orthographic forms would just go away. You yourself have never had a nice word to say about any of my publications. This is not the way a member of the Revival should be treated. It is my view that this year's awards, by giving no notice whatsoever to over a hundred thousand words of Cornish, a bias hitherto-unseen in the Gorseth is evident.
This is a carbon copy of the way you went into print over the poor technical quality of many KK publications, without making any attempt to discuss the matter with the persons and organisations responsible. This produced (a) resentment, and (b) a bunker attitude, making them disinclined to listen to my own and others' internal advice and criticism. But no doubt this was exactly you intention --- wrecking tactics.
The resentment and bunker attitude has been evident on the part of since Nicholas' talk in Lostwithiel. Your lot were outraged because anyone dared to show that the fundaments of KK were faulty. Your house of cards wrecked itself, as it was not built on a sound linguistic basis.
In any case you know fullwell that the Gorseth never recognised UCR in its competitions, the very reason, I understand, for Williams' resignation. They probably consider KS to be equally divisive, but why not let them answer for themselves?
I am in communication with them. It's you who are doing all the guessing.

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factotum
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by factotum » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:32 pm

Pieter, pleth ezos'ta? Yma hwans ahanas tezy!

I remind you that despite the fact that the Commissioners said that each faction should choose its own representatives to the AHG, the Cowethas and Kesva refused to allow Agan Tavas' choice.

Another little myth which you and your friends have invented and repeat endlessly until it becomes established 'fact'.

Where is your evidence? Would you kindly put up or shut up on this one.

As I understand it, all parties were advised that since the purpose of the AHG was to reach an agreement, hard-liners from any side would not be acceptable. The Kesva/Kowethas took this suggestion on board and refrained from putting forward the likes of Ken George, Paul Dunbar etc. Unfortunately AT failed to take the hint and put forward names that the Partnership judged would in all likelyhood produce an AHG unlikely to agree anything prior to Hell freezing over. They therefore found it necessary, having consulted with all parties (in practice the secretaries of the various organisations), to reject some names. In the event they arrived at an AHG than in turn arrived at an agreement --- although only with the greatest of difficulty. The Partnership would appear to have done the best it could in a near impossible situation.

What would have been the use of an AHG that could not come to any agreement? No SWF. Fine by me, but you claim to support the SWF (in your own perculiar way).

On the main topic here, as I've already said, you should get AT to award its own prizes, then you and Craig can win year after year.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Tennven » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:34 pm

Of course there is a simple explanation, that avoids all the conspiracies and secret agenda theories which, as distasteful to yourself and dismissive of your hard work as it is for you, is that your publications did not find favour amongst the panel of judges and were not up to the their personal standards when compared to the winners.

And as Factotum has pointed out, the Gorsedh (and its subcommittee HanG) is a closed and private group... their competition and its winners/losers is their decision. I find this whole thread rather sour.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Marhak » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:36 pm

I can't possibly agree with that, Tennven. I don't know if you've seen these publications but their standard is the highest possible. And I am glad you've brought up the "conspiracy theory" chestnut. We've never mentioned any such thing. You did. Funny how Keith is so "knowledgable" about events in which he took no part.

In case you missed it, Keith, one of my books was awarded a Commendation, and my only question (not even a complaint) is: why no High Commendation and Commendation categories in the Cornish Language section of the competition, when all other sections did? Simple, fair, inoffensive question, but it's apparently now a "conspiracies and secret agenda theory". Amazing. A stretch of logic unparalled since the day someone claimed that KK was Cornish.

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factotum
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by factotum » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:04 pm

Craig, at the time the AHG membership was being agreed, I was on the Kesva, and therefore in the loop. The secretary was in communication with the Partnership and notified us of developments by email, requesting comments and suggestions at each stage. Things may not have been as clear and open as I would have liked, but there was pressure of time, and everyone was anxious to get the show on the road. Comments from Kesva members were of necessity filtered through the secretary. I am assuming that the same was true for the other organisations. We were all invited to propose names for the AHG as a whole, not just for our own faction, but as suitable representatives of all (moderate) viewpoints. The result was a pool of names from which the Partnership chose the 'winning team' in consultation with the organisations' secretaries.

Of course if we'd known we'd be obliged to concoct a new form of Cornish, then the previous two or three years might have been devoted to devising and following through a proper, professionally guided, design process. In fact this time was wasted and the SWF stitched together at the last minute. I agree with Michael that this was not how these things are usually done.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Marhak » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:22 pm

I do know, Keith. I was not only there at the relevant meeting but in the Chair of AT at the time. I do agree, however, that the AHG was rushed through instead of having decent time devoted to it. I also think that Trond made some unwise judgements he wasn't qualified to make. This has resulted in a flawed SWF. That's as may be. We can't change that, but we do have another 3 years to put the case for correction, where required.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Evertype » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:33 pm

Of course you won't let yourself believe it, Keith but we used a linguistically sound and inclusive design process as we developed KS1 on the basis of our knowledge of RMC and RLC. And we have use the same sound principles as we have reviewed the SWF.

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Anselm » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:46 pm

Keith - yth hevel nag ow lowr gans Vab Vynitha treylya an Gesva ha'n Kowethas er y bynn. Yma ev y'n eur ma yn kres treylya an Orsedh er y bynn ynwedh. Py gorf po bagas a vydh nessa, dhe woedhvos?
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
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factotum
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by factotum » Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:47 pm

Pur wir, sertan, Tim. Skant ny yll boz mez nebez a-ji yn Kernow a'n synsi meur byz omma. A'n kaletter yw, yn-mes y'n byz brassa y'n synsir dhe voz neb keusenn vras yn mysk yethonieth ha dyllans. Ytho, dre y dhrogober yma va ow tisprisye Kerneweg ha'n dasserghyans yn-tien. Fatell yw materow gwelyz gans tuz yn-hons yn Bro Gembre?

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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by GanO » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:56 pm

Having just joined Cornwall24, this discussion caught my eye, as books are a big interest with me. If this Holier an Gov competition doesnt give out even any commendations for Cornish books surely thats going to make it more difficult for people to find out what good new books have come out recently?

Its also not going to encourage people who might be thinking of writing a book in Cornish and if we dont get new writers whats that likely to do to the supply of new books? And what about encouraging publishers of Cornish also.

The Gorsedh of all groups should know that this isnt about warring orthographies its about the future of Cornish. Or should be anyway!
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
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"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

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Evertype
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Evertype » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:58 pm

Indeed.

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Marhak
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Marhak » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:15 pm

Of course, the identities of both the author and translator of that novel might be an issue, as we're both bards who resigned from their membership.

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Anselm
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Anselm » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:53 pm

It's not entirely clear from the Constitution of the Gorsedh that it's possible to cease being a Bard.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Marhak
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Marhak » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:59 pm

We are listed in the current Bardic roll as having resigned from the Gorsedd. I did so 13 years ago; I'm not sure when Nicholas did. Both were on points of principle that we felt strongly about, and still do. Of course, we remain Bards. The reason for our Bardships can't be erased (mine, in 1981, was for services to Cornish archaeology). We simply ceased to be members of the Gorsedd and do not attend.

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Anselm
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Re: Holyer an Gof, 2010

Post by Anselm » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:48 pm

Ye-e-e-e-s ...
The point is that it's not entirely clear whether or not it's possible, even having offered a resignation and having this acknowledged, whether it's possible to cease to be a member. Bit of a grey area.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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