Kywni

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Karesk
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Kywni

Post by Karesk » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:28 am

I have seen this word used (possibly spelt differently) in some recent publications to translate "mould". Nance gives its meanings as moss, lichen, or mildew. These are three very different things and it would be nice to be able to distinguish them clearly. The word "kosk" also seems to be available for "mould". As far as I can find out, these meanings are known from dialect for both words and don't occur in surviving traditional texts.
How do other people use these words?

CJenkin
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Re: Kywni

Post by CJenkin » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:19 pm

koska seems to have the semantic sense of mouldering away (rusting, decaying) aswell as a sleeping and perhaps should have a similar sense to Latin sopor, a bit more negative than huna which gives the sense of deep, satisfying slumber.

Kosk as a noun could be available for mould, koska has a welsh cognate (and Breton?) so perhaps the semantic meaning can be extended on the basis of that.

Morvil
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Re: Kywni

Post by Morvil » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:33 pm

SWF has kewni (SWFt: kewny);

Palores
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Re: Kywni

Post by Palores » Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:50 pm

Why?

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Marhak
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Re: Kywni

Post by Marhak » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:50 pm

Why not? Why "kywni"? Where's that from?

Nance has: kewny; dialect (per Bottrell) has: keuney; Late Cornish (per Borlase) had: cueny. As far as I can see, the vowel is exactly the same as that in <kew>, enclosure'. What don't I see in any of those? Y. So why does KK spell it with a Y vowel?
(oh,because Breton has kinvi - Cornish evidence isn't deemed good enough for Cornish. But, if Breton has kinvi, why doesn't KK spell it kinwi?).

Karesk
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Re: Kywni

Post by Karesk » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:26 pm

Da lowr, da lowr, mes yth o ow govynn a dro dhe'n styryans.

Karesk
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Re: Kywni

Post by Karesk » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:27 pm

Pyth a styr an ger Bretonnek?

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GanO
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Re: Kywni

Post by GanO » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:52 pm

Karesk a scryfas, "Pyth a styr an ger Bretonnek?"

Well, Karesk, if you go to Google and type in "kinvi Breton", you get a link to the full text of the 'Lexique Etymologique Breton'. If you search through that text, you'll find that Br. 'kinvi' is a variant of 'kevni', which is defined as Fr. 'mousse'. And, if you are (sadly) not a Francophone, a quick look in any Fr-E dictionary will tell you that Fr. 'mousse' is E. 'moss'.

Easy peasy!
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

Karesk
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Re: Kywni

Post by Karesk » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:08 pm

Or easier still, ask the question here and someone does all that for you! Thank you. And what do Bottrell and Borlase say it means in dialect and in Late Cornish? I suppose I have to get off my backside and look it up myself.

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Marhak
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Re: Kywni

Post by Marhak » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:30 am

Bottrell gives: "Moss, lichen &c."

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Marhak
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Re: Kywni

Post by Marhak » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:14 am

Still doesn't explain "kywni". I do reject this trend of kicking aside of Cornish evidence just because Breton does something different. Breton isn't Cornish, however closely related it might be. It does provide helpful evidence, I do accept that, but how far do we take that? After 1200, assibiliation occurred in Cornish (e.g. nant > nans) but didn't in Breton or Welsh. Are we to de-assibiliate Cornish because it didn't happen in Breton?

Pokorny
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Re: Kywni

Post by Pokorny » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:32 pm

I don't think that Bret. kivni is the reason behind the KK spelling kywni. As GaO writes, kivni is just one of several dialectal forms of this word in Breton, including kevni, kewni, kenvi, kawni, kinvi, and kivni. Favereau gives the standard form as kevni with e. Delaporte lists it first as well. I'd imagine that the idea behind kywni is assumed vowel affection caused by -i.

pietercharles
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Re: Kywni

Post by pietercharles » Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:41 pm

Indeed, Pokorny.

If it really matters that much to Marhak why the word is spelt that way in KK he might usefully ask the Kesva's Yeth ha Gerva committee so that he can offer an informed opinion here rather than speculation dressed up as fact.

Instead of that Marhak tells the world categorically that it is spelt that way "because Breton has kinvi", calling it "this trend of kicking aside of Cornish evidence just because Breton does something different".

It's rubbish as usual. Unfortunately some people still take Marhak's outpourings at face value (even I used to!), although that tendency is thankfully in decline.

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Marhak
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Re: Kywni

Post by Marhak » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:04 pm

Now that you're back, perhaps you'd like to answer my question that you've been avoiding, and do something positive about your own credibility. With regard to the last post - if it's rubbish, tell us all why.

Albert - what isn't explained is: if it's assumed vowel affection, who assumed it and why? Particularly in the light of the Cornish evidence. We can't base a language on assumption unless it's widely discussed and researched.

pietercharles
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Re: Kywni

Post by pietercharles » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:06 pm

It's rubbish because there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the Yeth ha Gerva committee of the Kesva has ever decided on a particular KK spelling just "because Breton has" whatever spelling.

It's rubbish because there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the Yeth ha Gerva committee works on the principle that "Cornish evidence isn't deemed good enough for Cornish".

It's rubbish because there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the Yeth ha Gerva committee ever indulges in the "kicking aside of Cornish evidence" nor that it does this "just because Breton does something different".

It's rubbish because there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the Yeth ha Gerva committee is not aware that "Breton isn't Cornish". What a daft insinuation that one is.

All of these are merely your fanciful suppositions, driven, some would say, by nothing more than your constant need to find yet another stick - destructive though that clearly is - with which to beat individuals, organisations, and an orthography that you happen not to like.

It's rubbish because the evidence is before us all - taken as a whole KK looks nothing like Breton, although individual words may be spelt in a similar fashion to the corresponding word in Breton (which in any case is true of all the orthographies, not surprisingly).

But the number of words in KK that happen to be spelt in that way is not the point at all.

The point is, you are pretending that the committee that determines how to spell KK words purposefully ignores any Cornish evidence and actively aims to make Cornish words more like their Breton counterparts. It's rubbish and ridiculous - what would be the overriding reason for doing that exactly?

Does KK propose 'nant' rather than 'nans'? Of course it doesn't. Even you spotted that.

Anyone already associated with the language will know that these assertions are just plain ridiculous. It's probably worth pointing this out to newbies, however, to minimise the time taken by them to spot your 'portray fanciful notions as facts' approach to misinformation.

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