Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

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beniastrolab
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Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by beniastrolab » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:36 am

hemm nyns yw pow sawsen - this is not England.

Is that correct?

Palores
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by Palores » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:45 pm

This is not good quality Cornish.
Better would be "Nyns yw hemma Pow Sows".

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Marhak
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by Marhak » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:29 pm

Nyns yw Pow an Sawsen an tir-ma. (Correct?)

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Marhak
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by Marhak » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:29 pm

Sorry, SWF spelling is Sowsen.

beniastrolab
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by beniastrolab » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:51 pm

An this is what I'm trying say about learning Cornish. It's stunning that I can check with people though...so thanks Palores and Marhak.

Is it possible to bother you both for the literal translation or do they both come out as "this is not England"? I've been told often that sentences/statements could come out garbled (as in "England, this is not" or "not England this is").

It's just that I feel that I learn better when I understand rather than repeat

meur ras

CJenkin
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by CJenkin » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:18 pm

Nyns yw hemma - 'Not is this' literally but 'This isn't'
Pow Sows - 'Country (of) Saxons' literally but 'England'.

Palores gave you a perfect translation for This isn't England. :-)

Karesk
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by Karesk » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:24 pm

The rule your original version broke is that you shouldn't start a negative sentence with the subject followed by a third peron singular verb, as you can with an affirmative sentence, but with ny(ns) and a verb with a personal ending. "Hemm yw Pow Sows" would have been ok (gramatically).

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Marhak
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by Marhak » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:48 pm

Mine translates literally as "Not is England, this land". (Pow an Sowsen can be used as an alternative to Pow Sows. Both are genuine).

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Marhak
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by Marhak » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:51 pm

Pow an Sowsen is 'land of the Saxon' (singular) in much the same way as England was Angleland (not Anglesland), and Scotland is "land of the Scot" (not Scots"). It seems that in all three cases, the singular is being used as a collective plural.

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factotum
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by factotum » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:37 am

Agree with Mike and Palores. 'Pow Sows' is the established translation of 'England'. So that 'Pow (an) Sowsen' stands out, and looks like you trying to say something extra. Like e.g. it doesn't belong to The Englishman (which one?) But if this really is what you want to say there are better and clearer ways to put it.

(PS Ben, I've seen your PM but too late to reply just now)

beniastrolab
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by beniastrolab » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:12 am

This is fantastic...I knew there was some form of education to be had on the internet!!!

Marhaks way of translating to "Not is England, this land" is what I personally feel Cornish translation lacks at the moment as you're either tied in to trying to understand all the forms of words or just blindly accepting that a sentence means what you're told rather than understanding the actual way the sentence is made up.

So thank you everyone.

don't worry Factotum...I know it was a long rambling PM!

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Marhak
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by Marhak » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:26 am

What's off-putting about giving constructive information? Pow an Sowsen is given by Lhuyd (as Pou an Zouzn). As I mentioned earlier, this looks as though the singular form is being used as a collective plural, just as in Scotland and Angle-land. I don't understand the put-down.

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GanO
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by GanO » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:36 pm

Sorry, Marhak, that doesn't seem to be correct. The singular is 'Saws', pl. 'Sawson'. There doesn't appear to be a singulative *Sawsen.
Nance (1938) gives us a choice for 'England' of
-- Bro Saws,
-- Pow Saws,
-- Pow an Sawson (which corresponds to 'Land of the Saxons' NOT 'Land of the Saxon').
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Morvil
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Re: Can I just check? "hemm nyns yw pow sawsen"

Post by Morvil » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:08 pm

Both Pow Sows and Pow an Sowson are correct, though personally I prefer Pow an Sowson because it is attested. Note also that it is Sowson"Englishmen" - plural, not **Sowsen singulative; Lhuyd also has the the country names Pow an Brython and Pow an Flemen. Pow Sows has been so frequently used in the Revival that Factotum is correct in saying it is well established.

Marhak, England is derived from the Old English Englalond; the first compound element engla- is a genitive plural. This is the typical way older Germanic languages form their compounds. Icelandic still does so today. So England originally meant "Angles' land".

There is another word in Cornish for "England" which is attested and that is Englond (also spelt Ynglonde).

I would translate "This is not England!" as either "Nyns yw hemma Pow an Sowson!" or "Nyns yw hemma Pow Sows!"; if desired you could also say "Nyns yw hemma Englond!"
To give this a racier, colloquial feeling you could use the Late Cornish variant:
"Nag ew hebma Pow an Sowson!"

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