What are these words in Cornish??

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GanO
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by GanO » Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:15 pm

All are in any Cornish dictionary. You might wish to download the free SWF glossary from MAGA
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

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GanO
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by GanO » Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:40 pm

Well, Mike, that URL would help were it not for one small sticking point: it's all in that fake Cornish favoured by you and a few others here on C24. Unhistorical, untraditional, inconsistent; a jerry-built pidgin Cornish -- nothing but the delusions of a third-rate linguistic ignoramus.

No, better to use the SWF (for all its flaws) than the unremittingly spurious KK. After all, the SWF is the official form as approved by Cornwall Council and a consensus of Cornish language organisations and individuals, for use in schools and by local government. It's also one of the Real Cornish orthographies which we use at Gwask an Orlewen for our publications.

Alas, your so-called 'Common Cornish' (KK) has had its day, dew re bo grassyes!
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

pietercharles
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by pietercharles » Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:57 pm

Given that Gwask an Orlewen (sic) can't even get its own name right, it might be prudent to take any of its spiteful outbursts, such as that one, with a pinch of salt.

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Marhak
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Marhak » Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:07 am

Oh, dear, "majorities" again. I knew this would happen. Just to recap: although the "main form" (which I refer to as SWF/K) is that to be used by officialdom and in the early stages of formal education, SWF/T has EQUAL status in EVERY other respect. No one presently knows how many are using which, but classes are available in both. SWF (K and T) contains several flaws, as has become apparent to the Signage Panel among others: these can be addressed at the review of the SWF in 2013. But, let's have no baseless talk of "majorities" - we've all had quite enough of that.

Karesk
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Karesk » Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:24 am

moon234, look up the words in any of the word lists mentioned or any of a number of others that exist. You will find most of the words are the same in all of them, except for a few minor differences in spelling. Those of them that are in manuscripts from the time when Cornish was a widely used language will be spelt there in many other ways, depending on who wrote them and when. Use any spelling you like. If you want to understand the story behind the posts above, you will have to learn Cornish, and study the history of the language revival, and then you'll be able to decide which way of writing you want to follow. In the mean time, no reasonable person will blame you for doing the best you can with the confusing information that's on offer. (You will meet plenty of unreasonable people who will blame you, I'm afraid, but there's not much you can do about that).

Tennven
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Tennven » Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:57 am

Moon- Loor, Loer
Night- Nos,
Fairy- Spyrys,
Flower- Bleujen, Bleujenn
Star- Steren,
Leaf- Delen,
Girl- Mowes,
Flame- Flamm,
Fire- Tan,
Slave- Keth,
Tree- Gwedhen, Gwydhenn
Boy- Maw,
Baby- Baby.

I'm not sure of submissive, Pixie or nymph. The first translation is in SWF, the second in KK... KS probably has lots of dots and dashes above it, making it look total un-Cornish... (well, If Gano can have an unprovoked attack so can I right?) In all seriousness, any form is acceptable. Its the thought that counts...

Edit: If there any mistakes please point them out... ;)

Karesk
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Karesk » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:56 am

Spyrys means spirit and is the origin of the dialect word Spriggan, meaning a kind of fairy-like being. Boekka (variously spelt) is a word for some kind of hobgoblin and is used in traditional Cornish as well as being a well known word (Bucka) in dialect. Pixies are usually known as Piskies in Cornwall (Marhak mkaintains it's a different word but I think that's unlikely). The word isn't known in traditional Cornish but could be spelt Pyski. Nymph is a concept borrowed from classical myth, and I'm not sure it has a Cornish equivalent though a mermaid (morvoren) is a similar thing - maybe koesvoren (wood maiden), dowrvoren (water maiden) etc by analogy?

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Marhak
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Marhak » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:05 pm

Spriggan (gg in LC was pronounced as j) is from spyryjyon (allowed in SWF), "spirits" and are a particular type of unpleasant sprite. We have Pobel Vian for the Small People. I don't think "piskey" was ever written down traditionally, and its origin is arguable (certainly "Piskey Hall", the fogou near Constantine, has nothing to do with him, but derives from the field name). Bucca has become bocca in SWF. I never did understand where <oe> came from in KK, or the <o> here, as the vowel was always short U.

NJAW has nymf, -ow (f.) in his dictionary for nymph, although I do like Karesk's suggestions (SWF would have coosvoren/koosvoren). For submissive, he has: gostyth; uvel; whar; servabyl.

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Marhak
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Marhak » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:06 pm

Sorry - for bucca, SWF has: bocka, not what I wrote above.

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Marhak
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Marhak » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:15 pm

To make matters worse, the Ordnance Survey has taken upon itself to Anglicise the name of the Piskey Hall fogou, calling it "Pixie's Hall" on their maps. The field was Park-an-Pascoes 1649, from park an peskys, "field of the grazing (lit. "nourishing")". Worth visiting, if you've never been.

Morvil
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Morvil » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:45 pm

Here are possible translations of the words you requested, some of which have already been provided... (all in SWF/t)

moon = loor (f.)
night = nos (f.)
fairy = spyrys (m.) or fay (f.)
pixie = spyrys (m.) or pysky (m.)
submissive = gostydh
flower = flouren (f.) or bleujen (f.)
nymph = (UCR dictionary gives nymf (f.))
star = steren (f.)
leaf = delen (f.)
girl = mowes (f.)
flame = flamm (m.)
fire = tan (m.)
slave = keth (m), kethes (f.)
tree = gwedhen (f.)
boy = maw (m.)
baby = baby (m.) or flogh byhan (m.) or baban (m.)

May I ask what you want to do with this particular set of words?

Karesk
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Karesk » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:15 pm

I believe that the reason for the oe in KK boekka is that in KK phonology short stressed oe has a sound close to the u in "bucka" and is the nearest available representation of this sound. In the SWF, short stressed oe is replaced by o, and the recommendation seems to be to pronounce it like any other short stressed o (ie for most people as in English "hot"). But in the case of boekka/bokka, where so far as I know there is no etymological basis for the oe and it is there for phonetic reasons only, I don't think anyone believes it should be pronounced as the SWF spelling suggests. The problem seems to be finding a spelling that does represent the right sound. Apparently KS has a way to do it using extra symbols, but each spelling system is setting out to represent a different range of sounds.

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Marhak
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Marhak » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:37 pm

bucka, or bukka, would do it just fine. <oe> in KK was confusing as it didn't represent a single sound. In <boekka> it was representing short U; in <koes>, <goen>, it was for the sound of oo; and in <hwoer>, <moes>, it was for an "au" sound (although I believe that Ken said that perhaps he shouldn't have used the graph for the last of these). The most appropriate of these, as I see it, is the "oo" sound: <goen>, "downland", is by far the most common MC spelling of the word in place-name records.

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