What are these words in Cornish??

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pietercharles
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by pietercharles » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:43 pm

Well said, Pokorny. Very well said. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

As I wrote earlier on this thread:
I have no objection to any orthography.
I am happy to read anything written in any orthography or any register.
I consider all of it to be Cornish.
I don't believe anybody should be pressurized into giving up their preferred orthography and nor should they be made to feel in any way insecure or uncomfortable about using it.
We should learn to live with diversity instead of replicating the past twenty years or so and shooting ourselves in the foot by fighting it.

Getting more people to learn the language should be at the top of the priority list for everyone involved in the revival.
Discussions about orthography, which are almost always arguments, should be near the bottom of the list.
I shall try harder to keep my posts measured and reasonable.

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Anselm
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Anselm » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:55 pm

Yma Pokorny yn lagas y le, herwydh usadow.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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factotum
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by factotum » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:01 am

Michael : Long /I/ in stressed monosyllables is less common than it's short or unstressed equivalent. All become /e/ in Late. (Exception, absolute final stressed /-'I#/ > LC /-'i#/, in contrast to MC /-'i#/ > LC /-'@I#/, e.g. _vy_ > 'vee', _ni_ > 'nyi'). Since therefore long stressed /I/ in monosyllables behaves just like every other /I/ (bar the above well understood exception), I fail to see how this one environment can be "problematic". Please elucidate further.

Why is not long stressed /y/ in monosyllables not equally, indeed more, problematic? There is no 'problem' unless you choose to manufacture one.

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Evertype
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Evertype » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:32 am

Pokorny wrote:
Evertype wrote:We do not believe that Ken has made a case for two long o's. o serves for [oː]~[ɔ] and oo serves for [oː] which alternates with RLC [uː]. This is the same in the SWF and in KS, as far as I know.
Not 100%. The SWF uses <o> to represent [ɔː], which KS spells <au>.
Ah, well, that is an unnecessary ambiguity which is easily corrected (by the adoption of au).
SWF <mos> is supposed to be pronounced [mɔːz] in both RMC and RLC (although the range of realisations in the latter ranges from [ɒː] to [ɔː]).

We have discussed this before, but I still cannot understand why KS recommends the pronunciations [moːz] and [doːz] for 'go' and 'come', going against Lhuyd's transcriptions as well as the recommended pronunciations in UC, UCR, KK, and RLC.
In my close discussions with Neil Kennedy (in Vannes in late 2006 or early 2007), he and I discussed whether we needed to mark these two words as môs and dôs, because they are pronounced differently in RMC and RLC. Yes, Neil pronounces them as [mɒːz] and [dɒːz], rhyming with brâs [brɒːz]. In reality, on the ground, what UC recommends is simply not implemented by anybody. Even taking into account anglicized glide vowels like [oʊ] or [əʊ], the phoneme that UC/UCR users use for these words is long /o/, not long /ɔ/ and not long /ɒ/. RMC mos and dos rhyme with ros 'rose' and in RLC mos and dos ([mɒːz] and [dɒːz]) do not rhyme with RLC rôs [roːz]. The reason we don't write môs and dôs to show that these have an RMC/RLC alternation is simply that Neil thought that it wasn't necessary. (He also does not think it is necessary to write some monosyllables in -i and some in -y.)

Do you think KS (in its own lights) would be more accurate if we did write môs and dôs, Albert?

By the way, please do not go out of your way to cite UCR recommendations of 2000 in this context. Since 2006 our analysis of Revived Cornish has recognized that UCR's repetition of un-implemented UC recommendations was unwise. We are content to recommend RMC [moːz] and [doːz] and [roːz] and RLC [mɒːz] and [dɒːz] against [roːz]. Again, we haven't indicated the alternation because RLC's best linguist said he didn't think it was necessary.

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Marhak
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Marhak » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:54 am

These discussions about vowel pronunciations are interesting. Reading what Michael has just posted, about his discussions with Neil, makes me realise that, despite using Tudor-based Cornish, my pronunciation is markedly RLC. I do agree about reintroducing <au>, though (which is largely used in loan-words and archaic personal names). For me, the all-too-rushed Treyarnon process omitted several vowel graphs that could be so useful, leaving us with a choice which is too narrow to be adequate.

carrek
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by carrek » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:56 am

Pokorny a lavar gwir. Mirowgh orth dispresyans an governans rag Kembrek. A aljen nei bos nessa?

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Anselm
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Anselm » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:47 pm

Yn-sur. Kansow a vilyow a dus usi gans Kembrek, ha kansow hepken genen ni.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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