What are these words in Cornish??

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Anselm
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Anselm » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:15 am

Kevrenor - you're right, of course. I used to worry about the way in which one or two people unable to express the simplest things in Cornish would rabbit on at very great length at how we ought to say or write our language. In the event, the overwhelming majority of Cornish speakers have ignored them (to the extent that they're aware of their existence at all!) and I shall do the same. They can be irritating, I agree, but if they weren't holding forth about Cornish it would probably be flying saucers, their claim to Howard Hughes' wealth, or the conspiracy of the robots.
Moon - I can't help thinking it would be fun to set your list as the starting point for a contest with no prize. I'm going to start by composing a short passage containing all you words ...
Anselm

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'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
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Cornish Pirates

Karesk
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Karesk » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:29 am

Pokorny wrote:
Evertype wrote:Honestly, Albert, you have to understand orthographies as systems. It is not just a bunch of spelling options and mix-and-match graphs. There are relationships and dependencies to consider.
Gosh, thank you for enlightening little old me. :roll:
and then a large class of words which are [eː] for some speakers and [iː] for others.
And [ɪː] in theory and [ɪ] in practice for even more than the other two groups combined. Yet strangely (not!) these people and their usage are apparently expected to 'mend their ways' and switch to [iː]~[eː], both of which reflect the usage of a minority within an already tiny group of Cornish speakers.
Is anyone interested in making provision for those of us who say [ɪː] in theory and in practice? We don't seem to be anywhere in the percentages that Evertype quotes.

But I agree with Kevrenor and Anselm. That's my last comment on this thread unless I decide to take up Anselm's challenge.

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Marhak
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Marhak » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:37 am

I know there are several who don't like <chi> for <chy> in the SWF. I don't actually mind <chi>, and it has plenty of precedent in historic place-name spellings, and it's certainly more convenient when slipping in a E for the RLC <chei>. However, I also still tend to use the RLC pronunciation whether I'm reading <chy>, <chi> or <chy>.

pietercharles
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by pietercharles » Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:26 pm

Evertype patronised:
Honestly, Albert, you have to understand orthographies as systems. It is not just a bunch of spelling options and mix-and-match graphs. There are relationships and dependencies to consider.
And Pokorny was patronised:
Gosh, thank you for telling little old me.
Don't worry about being patronised by Evertype, Pokorny (as if you would...). It will endear you to absolutely everyone involved with the language.

And at least you got the message very quickly. Evertype didn't. He finds it almost impossible to understand any point of view other than his own.

A couple of years ago on CornishOrthography he spent ages arguing vehemently (in that aggressive 'I'm right because I'm a linguist' way of his) that Cornish did not need an unambiguous orthography, and that such a systematic orthography was not of any particular help to learners.
He couldn't understand any of the arguments in favour of such an orthography.
In fact, he said that suggesting such an orthography for Cornish is an aid to learners was tantamount to calling the Cornish 'stupid'. And he would not budge from that point of view.

Now he's had a conversion on the road to Dublin and is arguing vehemently (in that aggressive 'I'm right because I'm a linguist' way of his) that Cornish most certainly does need an unambiguous orthography and that such a systematic orthography will be an aid to learners. Is he calling the Cornish 'stupid'?

Here in Cornwall (where extensive linguistic research from overseas has determined that 45% of us get our vowel length right, and 55% of us don't) we just thank our lucky stars that The Boss only took a shine to a few diacriticised letters (if you can call eleven 'a few') (ELEVEN!!).

It could have been a lot worse. What if The Boss had decided he liked the look of Ogham, and had sent Evertype here to tell us all, every five minutes, how traditional it was?

We got off lightly.


Meanwhile, do those of you who constantly, constantly, use this public forum to criticise the pronunciation of Cornish speakers have any idea how much serious, unrecoverable damage you are doing?

We need people that are confident enough to learn Cornish and use it openly and without fear of being held up for criticism in public while some intentionally misleading 'linguistic' point is being made.
You are helping to make sure that we don't get them.

If you do know how much serious, unrecoverable damage you are doing then shame on you.
If you don't then you're either thick or a linguist.

Either way, do the language a favour and pack it up.

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Evertype
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Evertype » Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:35 pm

Karesk wrote:Is anyone interested in making provision for those of us who say [ɪː] in theory and in practice? We don't seem to be anywhere in the percentages that Evertype quotes.
The spelling ÿ~ë works to distinguish short y [ɪ] from long [iː]~[eː] even where the former is pronounced [ɪː].

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factotum
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by factotum » Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:05 pm

The spelling _y_ (contrasting with _i_ and _e_) does the same. It has been used for over 20 years and is simple to type. So where is the "problem" that you feel obliged to "solve" for us??

carrek
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by carrek » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:00 pm

factotum wrote:Indeed my patience with Cornish language speakers is pretty close to running out. You invent a problem where none exists, and then endlessly discuss diverse and increasingly bizarre 'solutions'. In Middle Cornish we have three phonemes /i/ /I/ /E/, which in Late reduce to two /i/ vs /e/. If the grapheme 'y' were somehow unavailable then, yes, we'd need a digraph, modified letter or diacritic to represent either /i/ or /I/. (And following the 'tradition' of the texts, 'ie' would be the obvious choice, especially as it would be go well with 'oe' for /U/). However we do have 'y' sitting there on our keyboards, so there is not a problem here and never was. Unless you choose to create one.
Ma cudyn heb mar, na via den veith orth y tadhla po na veu. Na veidh aniys Keith, agan perthyans genes jy a wrug mos nans ew polta.
factotum wrote:The rest of us might have a little more difficulty understanding written RLC, but sorting out which 'e's are our 'y's is really going to be the least of our difficulties, given the extensive differences in morphology, syntax and vocabulary. However if their past record is anything to go by, the Late people are unlikely to produce very much for us to read in any case. So even if we cannot understand it, our loss will not amount to much.
Na hwath, ty na venjes ta y redya drefen ty dhe sevel orth aswon pub dyllans oll en Kernowek Diwedhes hag ywedh drefen bos da genes pesya gweles Cres ha Diwedhes avel tavosow dyffrans. Th es'ta ow predery hwath nag ell LC bos neppeith aral es RLC Gendall, th es'ta ow nakevy dr'ell LC bos scrifys gans an FSS ha KS. Eus redys genes Jowal Lethesow? Eus redys genes nebes folednow Jowal Lethesow heb cost war Amazon? Otta jy. Ew cales po es dhe gonvedhes? Prag y fenjen ni hedhy an vresel pan th ew an batelyow mar veur gwary teg!
Last edited by carrek on Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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GanO
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by GanO » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:17 pm

Dhe'm marth bras --ha dhodho-ëef ynweth hep dowt!-- unver of gans Carrek y'n mater-ma.

Lyes orgraf kynth yma y'n dedhyow-ma, nyns us war an dorn aral nyver fest bras a lyfrow dhe gafos yn nagonen anedha.

Rak cafos lowr a lyfrow dhe redya/studhya agan tavas, res yu aga frena (po yscarga) yn dyvers orgrafow, y'm brus-vy -- pan esos nebes freth, dhe'n lyha. Rak ensompel, kyn nag wryllyf-vy scryfa saw yn KU, yn ow lyverva-vy yma lyfrow/lyfrow-t yn sortow dyvers a Gernewek Dasserghys (KU, KUA, KS, FSS/T, RLC, Jenner hag erel), kefrys ha re o pryntyes/dornscryfys kens an Dasserghyans.

Nyns yu res redya pup orgraf Kernewek y'n bys, mes tybyans da yu redya moy es onen anedha, a nyns yu?
Gwask an Orlewen
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"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

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Evertype
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Evertype » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:24 pm

factotum wrote:The spelling _y_ (contrasting with _i_ and _e_) does the same. It has been used for over 20 years and is simple to type. So where is the "problem" that you feel obliged to "solve" for us??
You just pretend that Revived Tudor Cornish and Revived Late Cornish don't exist, Keith. But they do.

There are words that are [eː] for everybody. These are usually written e in UC, UCR, KK, SWF, KS. Example mes 'field'.

There are words that are [iː] for everybody. These are usually written i in KK, SWF, KS. Example mis 'month', gwin 'wine'. (UC/R pronounces [iː] but do not write i here.)

There are words that are [ɪ] for everybody. These are usually written y in UC, UCR, KK, SWF, KS. Examples bys 'until', gwydn~gwynn 'white'.

Then there is a large class of words which KK says are [ɪː] and UC/UCR/KS say are [iː] but which RTC and RLC say are [eː]. You, Keith, don't seem to count as legitimate the [eː] pronunciation for these words, but that's your problem. The SWF says that this whole class can be written either with y or with e, depending on the desire of the writer. That might be fine, except that this clashes with the other uses above.

How is a RMC speaker to know, when he sees a word written by an RLC speaker, that it is not in fact a word he would pronounce [eː], but instead that it is a word that he would pronounce [iː] (or your [ɪː])? He can't. He's a learner, but he doesn't know all the words. And there are many in this class. So he's bound to be confused. And it works the other way, too. People learn that i is [iː] in monosyllables (gwin), and they learn that learn that y is [ɪ] in monosyllables (gwydn~gwynn), but there's no way of knowing when y is [ɪ] and when it is [iː] (or your [ɪː]) because this is extremely ambiguous.

Of course you will castigate me for pointing out that many KK speakers do not know when to pronounce y as [ɪ] and when to pronounce it [ɪː]. Despite two decades of teaching, many (likely most) of them follow the gwin/gwynn [iː]/[ɪ] model, and so they pronounce a large class of words with a short vowel—incorrectly. If your system were all that great, surely you wouldn't be in such a situation, would you? Perhaps you will just blame your teachers. My pointing out that they all have the wrong vowel length is not a criticism of them as human beings, any more than my criticism of UC speakers who say [juː] instead of [ɪʊ] for yw. (I don't suppose you've ever noticed that UCR and KK and KS agree about that.) It is a problem in orthography design and language-planning. Do we want good pronunciation or bad?

I don't think there is any point in trying to maintain a three-way distinction /i/ [iː]~[ i ] vs /ɪ/ [ɪː]~[ɪ] vs /e/ [eː]~[e] since that system broke down anyway and ended up with /i/ [iː]~[ɪ] and /e/ [eː]~[ɛ]. That happens also to be the distribution of phonemes in the learners' native tongue, which has and will probably continue to have an influence on the phonology of the Revived language (if we are to be realistic). The gwin/gwynn model exploits their native phonemic inventory just fine. Same with the the pel/pell model, yielding [peːl]/[pɛl], which is pretty decent pronunciation even if some people glide the former as [peɪl]. It's still long. Pryv [prɪv] should not be encouraged—but the SWF has no way to do it.

Prÿv~prëv is a way to solve the problem. Preiv might have also been a way of doing it. But the problem is there, whether you want to be found to agree with me or not. Many have observed the [prɪv] phenomenon. Why attack me for pointing it out, when I am not only pointing it out, but offering solutions to it? Even if you think prÿv is [prɪːv] and not [priːv], marking the word still solves the problem, because then learners still see ÿ as a different thing from i and y and e. Remember, you've got i and y and e now, but learners are analysing it differently from the way you intended. They're using i for [iː] and y for [ɪ] and e for [eː]~[ɛ], so if you want people to actually achieve a special [ɪː] you'd want to separate it from y somehow. Bÿs does that, much as you hate it for its diacritics, or much as you hate it for the fact that someone like me came up with it.
Last edited by Evertype on Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Marhak
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Marhak » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:21 pm

You forgot to have a go at me, "Pieter".

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Evertype
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Evertype » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:22 pm

Hey! No fair! I was basking in my chastisement! :lol:

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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by GanO » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:43 pm

Wallowing in schadenfreude? Och, why not indulge yourself: Lord knows there's a surfeit of 'schade', while 'freude is few and far between in this this Vale of Tears we inhabit so transitorily!
Gwask an Orlewen
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- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

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Anselm
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Anselm » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:33 pm

Yth esa an babyn ow nivera flammow war an loer ...
Yma kethwas godhavgar owth assaya belya erbynn an spyryson wostydh ...
Hmm ... prys hanafas a de dell dybyav.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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factotum
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by factotum » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:42 pm

Carrek : Thanks for the link to the "Jowal" sample. Anyone with a good knowledge of Cornish can of course read this without having to do too much head-scratching. If you already know how to pronounce the words then no problem. If however you are unsure of the sounds of many of the words, then this text will leave you perplexed. And this will apply, I reckon, whether you aim for a Middle or a Late pronunciation. It appears to be a complete pick-n-mix without any rhyme or reason. Ese sentially it's Middle Cornish grammar, but with a seemingly random selection of Tudor and Late features indicated.

Just a few examples, there are problems in almost every line ...

p3, para3
Jowal "I'n gwella pry"s ny wrug an glaw agas cachya"
MC Y'n gwella pryz ny wrug an glaw agas kachye
LC E'n gwella prez na rig an glaw gaz kachya

The 'y' in 'prys' has been marked to show that it becomes 'e' in LC, but there is nothing to indicate that 'ny' is replaced in LC by 'na' (regularly it would have become 'ne') or that the 'u' in 'wrug' becomes 'i' in LC, or indeed that the 'w' is lost entirely. Worse yet though is the spelling of 'yn' as 'in' which suggests that in LC it is *in, rather than the attested (and regular) 'en'. Moreover if 'i' is supposed to indicate a long vowel in this system, then something like 'een' is implied, yet this is a proclitic preposition with at most secondary stress, hence the vowel will always be short.

Jowal "yn medh", "in mes" for MC yn-medh, yn-mes > LC (a-)medh, (a-)mes

Here the unstressed 'yn' in both cases is greatly reduced in LC, if not completely lost. Yet this is not indicated, and 'in mes' would imply that here the vowel did not reduce in Late.

Jowal "Pleth eson ny ow mos"
MC Pleth ezon ni ow moz
LC Ple thera ney (o/a) moz

There is nothing to show a Late speaker that the 's' (for /z/) in 'eson' corresponds to his 'r', and the spelling of 'ni' as 'ny' implies that this word became 'ne' in Late rather than 'ney', as is very well attested.

Yet other Late characteristics, such as pre-occlusion are sprinkled liberally throughout the text. Even in words like 'pedntir' for 'penn+tir' which phonetically would be 'pentir', just like Penn+sans > pensans in pronunciation. Unless the author believes that both elements are independently stressed (unlikely), in which case we would expect to see 'pedn-tir' or 'pedn tir'.

The word written 'myttyn' is MC 'myttin' (phonetically 'myttyn') gives attested LC 'metten', yet it appears unnecessary to mark these 'y's with umlauts. Why therefore decorate 'prys, bys, jydh' etc. [Oh, I see you use 'je"dh' :roll: ] You mostly correctly distinguish 'i' from 'y', yet write e.g. 'why, ny' where LC 'wey, ney' shows that these are 'hwi, ni'

'Bughez' 'cows' is written 'buhas' showing the Tudor and Late change of unstressed final 'e' to 'a', yet we see e.g. 'awel', 'crohen', 'tyller', 'splander' and no doubt many more words with this 'e' unchanged. This is a confusion carried over from UC and UCR. Worse yet is 'dell aljen', since the '-en' had become '-an' in Tudor times, yet the '-ls-' only became '-lj-' in LC, (not even to be found in CW). So 'galjen' is an impossibility in Cornish of any age.

I don't think I need go on. We certainly need all the literature we can get, ideally in good idiomatic Cornish, whether, Middle, Tudor or Late. However beginners wanting to learn the correct pronunciation of the language (whatever their preferred period), need a crazy system like this like a hole in the head.

Anyone not already confident in their pronunciation of Cornish should avoid this and similar texts like the plague.

One might dismiss it as simply well-meaning but misguided. However since the people involved actually do understand the historical development of Cornish, I can only conclude that 'mischievous' would be a better description.

carrek
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by carrek » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:09 pm

factotum wrote:that the 'u' in 'wrug' becomes 'i' in LC,
<u> ew graf glawlen, na res merkya an chanjyans.
factotum wrote:or indeed that the 'w' is lost entirely.
Henn ew chanj orgrafek, nag ew chanjyans e'n leveryans. Na res y verkya.
factotum wrote:Jowal "Pleth eson ny ow mos"
MC Pleth ezon ni ow moz
LC Ple thera ney (o/a) moz

There is nothing to show a Late speaker that the 's' (for /z/) in 'eson' corresponds to his 'r',
Herwydh KS 'eson' ew furv liednek hag 'eron' ew furv cowsys. Ty a ell redya an ragavisyans rag KS1 obma.
factotum wrote:The word written 'myttyn' is MC 'myttin' (phonetically 'myttyn') gives attested LC 'metten', yet it appears unnecessary to mark these 'y's with umlauts. Why therefore decorate 'prys, bys, jydh' etc. [Oh, I see you use 'je"dh' :roll: ] You mostly correctly distinguish 'i' from 'y', yet write e.g. 'why, ny' where LC 'wey, ney' shows that these are 'hwi, ni'

'Bughez' 'cows' is written 'buhas' showing the Tudor and Late change of unstressed final 'e' to 'a', yet we see e.g. 'awel', 'crohen', 'tyller', 'splander' and no doubt many more words with this 'e' unchanged. This is a confusion carried over from UC and UCR. Worse yet is 'dell aljen', since the '-en' had become '-an' in Tudor times, yet the '-ls-' only became '-lj-' in LC, (not even to be found in CW). So 'galjen' is an impossibility in Cornish of any age.
'a' hag 'e' diwedha ew schwa en LC.
factotum wrote:I don't think I need go on. We certainly need all the literature we can get, ideally in good idiomatic Cornish, whether, Middle, Tudor or Late. However beginners wanting to learn the correct pronunciation of the language (whatever their preferred period), need a crazy system like this like a hole in the head.
Nag erom ow predery dr'ew an system maga foll dr'es ta ow leverel. Nag ellys jy breusy scrifa-composter kens ty dh'y gonvedhes en tien.

Michael a ell cowsel orthis a-dro dhe boyntys erel jy.

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