What are these words in Cornish??

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Evertype
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Evertype » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:17 am

Tennven wrote:Evertype, I'm sorry you felt I needed to defend you against PC...
Oh, I didn't. I was just pointing out that you weren't being even-handed. ;-) I don't. of course, worry about PC's school-marmish superciliousness. It's interesting to see her first post, in which she makes a range of allegations, and her second, which she tries to cool down with some seeminglys and apparents.

She also doesn't understand about the collegial negotiations between UC/UCR users and RLC users which led to a realization that by focusing on 1600 as a target date (rather than 1500 or 1700) that a Cornish orthography could reach outward to accommodate the ends of the dialect spectrum. She doesn't understand that it was through the course of those discussions that we realized that if we took Jordan's habit of using voiced consonants after long vowels and voiceless ones after short vowels we could take advantage of people's native English to improve pronunciation. She probably doesn't know that this system, devised by UdnFormScrefys on the basis of Jordan's 1611 Creacyon an Bës, is now at the core of the SWF. And she doesn't understand that it was with such a system in place, we were able to move to a position where the orthography could have a strong correspondence between spelling and pronunciation—which gave rise to a principled change in my thinking (in 2006, by the way) leading to my views that an orthography can be both traditional and accurate.

I responded to Albert's "Gosh, thank you for telling little old me." in this post and I stand by what I said, because his analogy was simplistic and not an indication of a systems approach to the problem.

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Marhak
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Marhak » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:41 am

PC does so love to tell people that they don't read posts - yet says: "Pokorny was patronised (presumably by Evertype) :'Gosh, thank you for enlightening little old me' ". Go back and read it, PC. That was Pokorny's own statement.

kal
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by kal » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:10 pm

No need to get defensive Eddie, but I am not a publisher or writer, you apparently are,so when you make 'nothing more than a slip of the keyboard.' when you write Cornish on this forum for all the world to see, the optics are not too good, never mind the other insulting comments you continue to make to others here. Lets just hope your ' comyx' were edited by someone who knows Cornish and UC

A welta an geseth ? me a'n gonveth .

Karesk
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Karesk » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:56 pm

Anselm wrote:Karesk - oberenn vryntin! RES dhis dannvon an bardhonek brav na dhe 'An Gannas'.
Meur ras dhis rag dha gennerth. Yn gwiryonedh, ober dallethor ywa. Ny wra furvya an lavarennow yn ow brys gans es ha toeth whath, ha sur ov vy na vo henna an Kernewek ewn a Gernewegor da. Hen yw bardhonnek gerlyver dhe wir. Mes didhanus ha diskus ("diskus" - yw honna fordh ewn a furvya ger nowydh?) lowr yw spena termyn gans gerlyver ow kul neppyth a'n par na. Martesen my a wra y dhannvon.

Karesk
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Karesk » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:21 pm

[quote="Tennven"]I don't think anyone, PC included! should use someones mistake in Cornish as basis for an attack (counter or otherwise?) Perhaps we should right some Rules of engagement!

Yes, one of the reasons I come here and try to write Cornish is in the hope of learning something. I learn a lot from seeing corrections to mistakes. It's more comfortable when they're other people's but most useful when they're mine. I sometimes think I'd get more feedback on my Cornish if I spent more time being rude to people. But I'd prefer not to, tempting though it can be.

Karesk
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Karesk » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:39 pm

[quote="Evertype"]I'd be very pleased to publish original work by you, or a translation of something into Cornish by you, Keith. Of course, you've pre-rejected (and made spurious complaints against) the orthography I'd prefer to publish it in,

Would you publish anything in any other orthography? Unless you make that clear, people will be assuming that that was not a serious offer.

(Yes, I know there was some KK in your Alys..)

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Evertype
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Evertype » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:19 pm

Karesk wrote:
Evertype wrote:I'd be very pleased to publish original work by you, or a translation of something into Cornish by you, Keith. Of course, you've pre-rejected (and made spurious complaints against) the orthography I'd prefer to publish it in,
Would you publish anything in any other orthography?
Some time ago, I offered to publish one book in the SWF/T, but the author didn't want to do that. Since then I have worked quite extensively with the SWF/T (editing and producing Ray Chubb's Skeul an Tavas SWF/T and SWF/K editions for Agan Tavas), and I have found its errors and inconsistencies to be too great to publish literature in. The political compromises in the SWF damage it seriously. It might be one thing to publish a grammar book in, but not enduring literature.
Unless you make that clear, people will be assuming that that was not a serious offer.
I am quite serious. I would be delighted to publish Cornish by Keith. But he has rejected the orthography I'd prefer to publish it in.
(Yes, I know there was some KK in your Alys..)
Indeed. An homage to Ray Edwards, who, sadly, did not live to see Alys or our other publications. And also "Hèm yw an pëth sëgha oll yw aswonys dhybm".

Pokorny
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Pokorny » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:25 pm

I am quite serious. I would be delighted to publish Cornish by Keith. But he has rejected the orthography I'd prefer to publish it in.
Near-verbatim repetition does not an answer make. Would you be prepared to publish it in the orthography the author wishes to use?

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GanO
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by GanO » Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:01 pm

I realise that the question was addressed to Evertype, but let me re-state Gwask an Orlewen's position on this matter.

We will publish in any of the Traditionalist orthographies, such as UC, UCR, RLC, KS, SWF/T, as well as those used in print and MS from the early Revival and before.

Our reprints of RC books are faithful to the original writer's choice; no respellings, no rewordings; nothing but correction of typographical errors (with each of them footnoted, so the original uncorrected text is still evident).

We welcome new writings/translations in any of these orthographies. The author of any such new works would have the final say on which orthography/orthographies were used for publication.

However, we will not publish at all in unhistorical orthographies such as KK and SWF/K. Authors who insist on their work being published in either of those would have to look elsewhere to find acceptance.
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

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factotum
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by factotum » Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:20 pm

Carrek : If I follow you correctly, writing 'u' for LC 'i' in words like 'gwrug' etc. is OK, but writing 'y' for LC 'e' is not OK. Why not? Indeed, 'u' may be more problematic than 'y', since 'y' is always 'e' in Late except in a couple of words where it is final and stressed, where it becomes Late 'i'. OTOH, the rules for 'u' which can be Late 'i' or 'e' (e.g. _ugens_ > _eganz_) are a little more complex. Indeed I'm not sure if anyone has fully described them.

Michael : Only you could say with a straight face that you must reject the SWF because it is misleading and inconsistent etc., and then publish in KS, which if the Jowal sample is anything to go by is absolutely riddled with inconsistencies, confusion, and unhistorical forms. Some of which I highlighted yesterday.

pietercharles
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by pietercharles » Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:40 pm

Marhak tried to find something scathing to say:
PC does so love to tell people that they don't read posts - yet says: "Pokorny was patronised (presumably by Evertype) :'Gosh, thank you for enlightening little old me' ". Go back and read it, PC. That was Pokorny's own statement.
Yes, of course it was Pokorny's own statement, "Marhak". I quoted it as proof that Pokorny knew he was being patronised.

What are you suggesting about how I might have misread it? Who else but Pokorny could have replied to Evertype with those words?

Everyone but you will have understood that I was doing something you very rarely do - offering evidence.

Evertype patronised Pokorny, and in case anyone wondered whether Pokorny recognised that he was being patronised I pointed out that indeed he did -
"Pokorny was patronised (that was a statement from me): 'Gosh, thank you for enlightening little old me' (and there are Pokorny's words, as evidence).

How much more explanation do you need?

Oh dear. I don't need to go back and read the posts, "Marhak". You just need to read them a little more slowly, and not interpret them in whatever way suits you best.

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Marhak
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Marhak » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:44 pm

Then refine your wording. You wrote: "Pokorny was patronised": and then put up the quote.

"Was patronised" is a passive verb. What followed would then be interpreted by many as referring to the quote, and that he'd been patronised by those words, i.e.,that the quote was what patronised Pokorny. If you'd written "Pokorny was then patronised by this statement:, etc.", then your meaning would have been clear.

We weren't born with crystal balls (oh, so sorry - I forgot. You did previously tell us that you don't have any).

carrek
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by carrek » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:12 pm

Ha ma PieterCharles ow predery dr'ew arvreusy leveryans tus kisus dhe'n dasserghyans. Na wra hei predery a'n imaj ujy tardhow gocky hy honen ow tanon mes!

carrek
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by carrek » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:25 pm

factotum wrote:Carrek : If I follow you correctly, writing 'u' for LC 'i' in words like 'gwrug' etc. is OK, but writing 'y' for LC 'e' is not OK. Why not?
Da via genam gweles furv glawlen rag y/e. Th erom ow predery dr'eus cudydnow lowr dhe 'y'. Da ew genam 'ei' bus th erom ow pedha na via da genes jy hedna drefen nag ewa usys gen KK.

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Evertype
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Evertype » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:45 pm

factotum wrote:Michael : Only you could say with a straight face that you must reject the SWF because it is misleading and inconsistent etc., and then publish in KS, which if the Jowal sample is anything to go by is absolutely riddled with inconsistencies, confusion, and unhistorical forms. Some of which I highlighted yesterday.
Evidently you are pretending to believe that the orthography KS is supposed to somehow be both RMC and RLC at the same time. That isn't correct. What it does do is enable people with certain dialect preferences to write those preferences, and most of those (s/j is not) are signalled to readers of other dialects. The text of Jowal Lethesow is written in the language Nicholas prefers to use himself, which is more centred on 1600 than on 1500 or 1700.

Carrek did a fair job of showing most of your complaints to be less damning than you hoped. I mean, come on. You criticize it for writing yn medh? It's not written in Late Cornish. If there were characters speaking Late Cornish, their dialogue might be marked as "y’medh or just "medh".

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