What are these words in Cornish??

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factotum
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by factotum » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:45 pm

Carrek. You still need to explain (a-dro dhe 'y') why you think it is somehow better to write two letters, your 'ei' (although 'ie' would be more authentic and less confusing), rather than just one --- 'y'; and why you think it better to introduce a new sign ('ei') which afaik no previous system, (not even RLC?) has used before, when at least half the Revival have been using 'y' for years. Indeed UC which _everyone_ is familiar with, used only 'y' for both the 'i' and 'y' sounds.

Also, looking just at your reply (because it's there before me, it's no worse than a lot of other KS inspired pick-n-mix), I cannot see any rational system that anyone could learn. For example you write LC 'genam' (MC 'genev' or 'genem(a)') and then follow it with MC 'gweles' where LC would be 'gwelas'. Likewise MC 'ezov' or 'ezom(a)' going to Tudor 'ezav' to LC 'theram'. By the time the /z/ became /r/ the /O/ and long since become /a/. So much for authenticity. How is a MC user suppossed to know which of your 'a's are MC 'a's and which are 'e's or 'o's which later merged into 'a'? You write 'eus' which already by Tudor times was 'es' or 'ez', so pure 'classical MC', then you write 'bus' for 'mez' which is pure LC. And 'ew' for 'yw' which is Tudor. Here in lies madness. How on earth do you expect beginners to make any sense of this, or even the average user who isn't especially interested in the detailed history of the language?

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Evertype
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Evertype » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:55 pm

ei is used for words of the bÿs~bës class throughout Creacyon an Bës.

Gweles and gwelas are both [ˈɡwɛləs].

Your confusion is that you can't fit this stuff into the structures of your conlang, I guess.

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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by GanO » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:01 pm

Well, Carrek, there you have it—right from the horse's mouth.

Your 'Cornish' is (evidently) so banjaxed, not to say 'fec**d up that you might as well turn your toes up and learn Esperanto or Kemmyn.

Alternatively, why don't you just ignore the Whinging Pom (aka 'Factotum') and carry on as you have been doing?
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

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factotum
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by factotum » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:12 pm

Just more double talk, Michael. Either KS is supposed to serve both Middle and Late, which I believe is one of its main selling points, or else it's not.

My wonder over 'yn medh' was (a) why is the 'y' not marked to show that it would later become 'e' in general, or in this special case either 'a' or NULL. Or if you see no reason to mark this and many other 'y's that later become 'e' (almost all of them), why do you need to umlaut the 'y' in 'bys' etc. A much more useful application of diacritics would be to mark the 'e's that you write for 'y's due to your spurious 'vocalic alternation'. Why not follow the practice of Middle English editors and distinguish them with dots and hooks, since it's ME spelling that we're dealing with here. The same goes for o vs oe, which you also fail to distinguish. This is exactly the sort of weakness in the SWF that you claim to be addressing;

and (b) why write 'yn medh' but 'in mes'? Are you suggesting that the two 'yn's are somehow different? Is one vowel long and the other short? Or do you see a quality difference? How do you justify this? Don't you think this will simply confuse the hell out of potential learners? Might it not just very slightly put them off? Especially after you 'saw the light' and told us you'd realised at last how important it was that the spelling provided a reliable guide to pronunciation.

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factotum
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by factotum » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:22 pm

Michael, pairs like 'gwelez' and 'gwelas' have the unstressed vowel distinguished in MC, even where the are confused in later mss (e.g. PA) the rhymes make it clear that they were distinct. You can either write Classical MC and distinguish them, or you can write Tudor or later Cornish and write 'a' throughout. Either way a reader would know where they were. But to distinguish the vowels in some words and not in others is simply guaranteed to confuse.

Btw. there is NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER for phonemic schwa in Cornish, not even in Late. Lhuyd had a symbol available for schwa and does not use it for these vowels. Why are you in denial of plain facts?

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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by carrek » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:25 pm

factotum wrote:Carrek. You still need to explain (a-dro dhe 'y') why you think it is somehow better to write two letters, your 'ei' (although 'ie' would be more authentic and less confusing), rather than just one --- 'y'; and why you think it better to introduce a new sign ('ei') which afaik no previous system, (not even RLC?) has used before, when at least half the Revival have been using 'y' for years. Indeed UC which _everyone_ is familiar with, used only 'y' for both the 'i' and 'y' sounds.

Also, looking just at your reply (because it's there before me, it's no worse than a lot of other KS inspired pick-n-mix), I cannot see any rational system that anyone could learn. For example you write LC 'genam' (MC 'genev' or 'genem(a)') and then follow it with MC 'gweles' where LC would be 'gwelas'. Likewise MC 'ezov' or 'ezom(a)' going to Tudor 'ezav' to LC 'theram'. By the time the /z/ became /r/ the /O/ and long since become /a/. So much for authenticity. How is a MC user suppossed to know which of your 'a's are MC 'a's and which are 'e's or 'o's which later merged into 'a'? You write 'eus' which already by Tudor times was 'es' or 'ez', so pure 'classical MC', then you write 'bus' for 'mez' which is pure LC. And 'ew' for 'yw' which is Tudor. Here in lies madness. How on earth do you expect beginners to make any sense of this, or even the average user who isn't especially interested in the detailed history of the language?
Na wra'vy gweles an poynt a spena meur a dermyn ow stirya hebma dhis kens ty dhe gonvedhes an FSS. Nag ellys jy breusy an FSS po na wres ta y gonvedhes en tien. Na whath, my a vedn leverel nebes poyntys a-dro dhe'n peth eus leverys genes:

Nag eus 'ei' dhebm, ma 'ei' dhe Gernowek Standard. Th erom ow crejy dre via ev furv glawlen da. Ha mars ew an furv usys en KS, lyckly ew dr'o ev usys en Kernowek hengovek.

'eu' ew furv glawlen. Ma hebma leverys dhis seulabres.

Ma leverys genam seulabres: 'e' diwedha ew schwa et an FSS. Na res scrifa 'a'. Pubonen a ell usya leveryans aga honen gen 'e'. Cowsoryon MC a ell leverel aga 'e', ha cowsoryon LC a ell leverel 'e' avel schwa. Nag eus cudyn gen hedna.

Nag ellam gweles aga hudyn ow tuchya porwiryonsys. Dha scrifa-composter jy ew an leha porwiryon godhvedhys genam. Na, nag ew radnow a'n FSS porwiryon. Bus mar qwra ev kesunya an leveryanjow dyffrans, hemm ew moy a les dhe'm bres vy.

Th erom owth usya an FSS pub dedh, ha th erom orth y gavos scrifa-composter pur dhe les. Ma nebes fowtow, bus nag ew an cudydnow maga ta dr'es jy ow leverel.

My a's lever arta: Nag ellys jy breusy an FSS po na wres ta y gonvedhes en tien. Nag ew hebma an cas, del hevel. Erna ty dh'y gonvedhes en tien, na dal dhis y arvreusy.
Last edited by carrek on Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

carrek
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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by carrek » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:27 pm

GanO wrote:Well, Carrek, there you have it—right from the horse's mouth.

Your 'Cornish' is (evidently) so banjaxed, not to say 'fec**d up that you might as well turn your toes up and learn Esperanto or Kemmyn.

Alternatively, why don't you just ignore the Whinging Pom (aka 'Factotum') and carry on as you have been doing?
Th erom orth y usya avel fordh dha rag scrifa Kernowek :mrgreen:

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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by kal » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:40 pm

GanO wrote:Well, Carrek, there you have it—right from the horse's mouth.

Your 'Cornish' is (evidently) so banjaxed, not to say 'fec**d up that you might as well turn your toes up and learn Esperanto or Kemmyn.

Alternatively, why don't you just ignore the Whinging Pom (aka 'Factotum') and carry on as you have been doing?

Such class Eddie, as usual, you could never actually give an informative answer could you, just throw insults , one could not make you up if they tried.

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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by kal » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:41 pm

Evertype wrote:ei is used for words of the bÿs~bës class throughout Creacyon an Bës.

Gweles and gwelas are both [ˈɡwɛləs].

Your confusion is that you can't fit this stuff into the structures of your conlang, I guess.

conlang ?? talking about the pot calling the kettle black, KS the pick and mix orthography.

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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by GanO » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:20 pm

The Canadian Cretin (aka 'idiot' aka 'penis') wrote:
Such class Eddie, as usual, you could never actually give an informative answer could you, just throw insults , one could not make you up if they tried
That response was written ironically, Reeves. That's a register of usage which, along with satire and humour, you evidently have yet to understand.My answer was wholly informative, or at least would be for one of those who (unlike you) are not as thick as two short planks.

I hope that Carrek, unlike your gormless self, has the wit to realise that. If not, I shall apologise to him/her and rephrase my response more directly.

That you. the self-proclaimed Idiot Reeves, should fail to grasp such subtlety is only to be expected. After all, you do suffer from the delusion that you're "actually very good at this satire lark". Educate pork? Not oinking likely!

Now, Reeves, why don't you just toddle off and annoy some other language community, for as sure as hell, you have no friends here. About the only advantage you bring to the Revival (pace a friend of a friend) is that no-one could mistake you for a Kernewegor.
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Evertype » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:10 pm

factotum wrote:Just more double talk, Michael. Either KS is supposed to serve both Middle and Late, which I believe is one of its main selling points, or else it's not.
And serve them it does, better than any of the other orthographies. I know one RLC writer who says he cannot really write anything in the Late variant of the SWF—but he has written the text of a book I will publish next year, using his preferred dialect in an intelligible way.
My wonder over 'yn medh' was (a) why is the 'y' not marked to show that it would later become 'e' in general, or in this special case either 'a' or NULL. Or if you see no reason to mark this and many other 'y's that later become 'e' (almost all of them), why do you need to umlaut the 'y' in 'bys' etc.
We mark long vowels in stressed monosyllables because those are very common and are therefore problematic.
A much more useful application of diacritics would be to mark the 'e's that you write for 'y's due to your spurious 'vocalic alternation'.
Vocalic alternation is not spurious. It exists in Welsh and in Cornish and not in Breton.
Why not follow the practice of Middle English editors and distinguish them with dots and hooks, since it's ME spelling that we're dealing with here.
What a load of hooey.
The same goes for o vs oe, which you also fail to distinguish. This is exactly the sort of weakness in the SWF that you claim to be addressing;
We do not believe that Ken has made a case for two long o's. o serves for [oː]~[ɔ] and oo serves for [oː] which alternates with RLC [uː]. This is the same in the SWF and in KS, as far as I know.
and (b) why write 'yn medh' but 'in mes'? Are you suggesting that the two 'yn's are somehow different? Is one vowel long and the other short? Or do you see a quality difference? How do you justify this? Don't you think this will simply confuse the hell out of potential learners? Might it not just very slightly put them off?
What do you think the answers to these questions are? You seem to know how I think very well. Plus I've answered these questions before. So why don't you make a good guess and I'll tell you how you did?
Especially after you 'saw the light' and told us you'd realised at last how important it was that the spelling provided a reliable guide to pronunciation.
That's going to get very old very fast. I, with others, came to this conclusion in mid-2006; we published the first draft of KS1 (to your great dismay as I recall) on 26 March 2007.

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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Pokorny » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:22 pm

Evertype wrote:We do not believe that Ken has made a case for two long o's. o serves for [oː]~[ɔ] and oo serves for [oː] which alternates with RLC [uː]. This is the same in the SWF and in KS, as far as I know.
Not 100%. The SWF uses <o> to represent [ɔː], which KS spells <au>. SWF <mos> is supposed to be pronounced [mɔːz] in both RMC and RLC (although the range of realisations in the latter ranges from [ɒː] to [ɔː]).

We have discussed this before, but I still cannot understand why KS recommends the pronunciations [moːz] and [doːz] for 'go' and 'come', going against Lhuyd's transcriptions as well as the recommended pronunciations in UC, UCR, KK, and RLC.

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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by kal » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:43 pm

Eddie, you would not recognize irony if it slapped you in the face , insulting someone is not irony, you are just a nasty piece of work and always have been, and not too bright at that.

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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by kal » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:56 pm

So what form are the LC speakers using /? I know that Neil Kennedy writes his newsletters in the FSS.LC variant , have they dumped the orthography based on Jenner which they were recently using ,it is hard to say, as their website has been under constructions since March 2010, or do they have a choice now of KS, Jenner and the FSS ? and toss a coin before they decide which one to use?

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Re: What are these words in Cornish??

Post by Pokorny » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:06 pm

Could we please *all* refrain from personal invective, the setting up of websites that make everybody involved with the Cornish language look like a moron to outsiders, and the washing of dirty laundry in a public space like this?

No, we will probably never agree on the 'correct' reconstruction of the historical language. If there even actually is such a thing as one single correct interpretation of the sources. So what. This only looks like a problem because we have all contributed to blowing it out of proportion. The mere fact that the Cornish revival has got as far as it has is nothing short of a small miracle. An encouraging example of justified stubbornness and determination in the face of a global trend that spells the death of languages and cultures on an unprecedented scale. All of you - including those who keep getting attacked by the respective other for using the 'wrong' type of Cornish - have contributed their share to this incredible success. I for one am thankful to Ken George, Richard Gendall, Nicholas Williams, Evertype, Pietercharles, Morvil, Gwask an Orlewen and all the rest of you for making this possible. I for one will continue to support the Cornish revival in whichever written form should be devised to represent the language.

Yes, we are going to destroy the fruits of a century of hard, unpaid work by many idealists and blow the revival to smithereens if we continue in this vein.

This is the real problem we are facing. Not <c>s or <k>s. Not which of us have been nasty to whom. Not who allegedly hijacked which organisation in the 1980s.

Plus, the current government will gleefully seize on the squabbling and use it as a pretext to withdraw all funding from the language. We have external enemies to confront. There is a very real threat to the language, and it is not Cornish speakers who happen to be using another orthography. Whatever our orthographic, ideological, or personal allegiances and differences, we must face this threat together. Nothing unites like a common enemy. If we don't even manage to set aside our internal differences now, we really are beyond help.

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