Orthography, Revival and Change.

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
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Anselm
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by Anselm » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:05 am

Gwir an ger. Mes res perthi kov yn kever nebes tus - tus an anvi dreus eghenn - bones folsa blew yn kever agan yeth yn Sowsnek ytho towl ynno y honan. Pesya i a vynn owth assaya settya an lagha dhyn, kyn na wodhons i gorra warbarth kemmys hag unn lavar 'vas.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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factotum
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by factotum » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:36 pm

Yndella may fo, pur wir. Hag awoz ny yllyn ni aga thage, py mar grev an hwans traweythyow, martesen y koedh dhyn traweythyow, argye er-aga-fynn, ha dres oll assaye displegye pandr'a wher a-dro dhe'n yeth, dhe'n re di-Gerneweg. Ha fatell a alse henna boz gwryz marnaz dres an Sowsneg?

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factotum
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by factotum » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:38 pm

Whoops, scribal error there, for _dres_ leg. _dre_.

Morvil
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by Morvil » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:48 pm

Marhak a scrifas:
Lhuyd still provides the only guide to native Cornish pronunciation that even approaches clarity and, again, I recommend Richard Gendall's "Guide to the Pronunciation of Cornish" (Teere ha Tavas 1992), which is an analysis of Lhuyd. It might not be perfect, but it's all we have from when the language was still spoken in the community. Why some won't entertain this utterly defeats me.
Lhuyd has the following spellings for the verbal noun: <klyụez, kloụaz, kleụez, glẏụez>
The monosyllabic forms (3sg.pr.fut./2sg.imper.) he spells: <gleụ, glow>

I interpret his forms as clewes ~ clowes [ˈkləwɐz] and clew ~ clow [klɛˑʊ] or [klɔˑʊ].

Morvil
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by Morvil » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:00 pm

Factotum a scrifas:
And _klyw_ or _klew_ may well be one such word. It's purely chance that the correction, if judged necessary, happens in this case to take us back to Nance's form.


Yes, and no! UC is Nance's standardisation of the MC textual spellings, mainly the Ordinalia, but also PA, BM and a little CW. That Nance's for of clowes was "correct" demonstrates how important the textual spellings are as opposed to relying too much on forms reconstructed from Welsh and Breton in preference to the textual spellings. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that the textual spellings shouldn't be critically examined, evaluated and interpreted, but if a reconstructed form like KK klywes is so markedly different from the (well attested) MSS forms then this should tip off the phonologist doing the reconstruction. The texts remain our most important corrective, not only, perhaps imperfectly understood phonological equivalents between Cornish, Welsh and Breton.
This doesn't in any way validate Nance's "inspired guesswork" approach to orthography.


"Inspired guesswork" isn't perhaps the ideal term for this. I prefer "standardisation". He wasn't really guessing anything, he was spelling as the texts spelt.
Although as I've tried to explain above, Nance can hardly be blamed. He is of his time, working with the outlook and available techniques of his time.


Not quite, as his day and age was the boom-time of Indo-European historical linguistics and reconstruction techniques, though they have been refined since then, were essentially the same s they are today.
But we are of a later time, and with better techniques and building on the accumulated work of the past we can do better. And I would say we need to do better, because spoken Cornish is now much more to the fore than it was 80-odd years ago. And with the increasing ease with which recordings and videos can be made and distributed, that trend is bound to increase.
Here I agree with you fully.

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Anselm
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by Anselm » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:32 pm

Dre vras yth os ewn, mes wosa gorthbrevi aga gowdhadhlow arta hag arta, nyns eus edhomm a besya orth y wul. Yn gwiryonedh, nyns yw rann vrassa aga flontyans marnas gwari rag skoellya nell hag amser. Gwell genev vy ri ow nell hag amser dhe'gan yeth es omunya yn gwariow gokki tus an anvi.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

Morvil
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by Morvil » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:41 pm

Anselm a scrifas:
Gwir an ger. Mes res perthi kov yn kever nebes tus - tus an anvi dreus eghenn - bones folsa blew yn kever agan yeth yn Sowsnek ytho towl ynno y honan. Pesya i a vynn owth assaya settya an lagha dhyn, kyn na wodhons i gorra warbarth kemmys hag unn lavar 'vas.
P'ew an dus "anvi" ma ero'whei ow clappya anodhans? Bo ero'whei ow menya 'envy', martesen? Nag ero'nei bes ow felja blew!?! Th ero'nei ow clappya 'dro dhe daclow neb ew pur dhe les dhe nei. Mar nag ew dhe les dhis, na glap et y gever! Mar sempel del hevel. Th ero'nei ow scrifa en Sowsnek rag besy ew bos kewar ha diblans ha nag eus dhe nei terminologieth yethoniethek kebmyn ha nei dhe glappya war lies nivel a Gernowek, ha cales ew rag radn anodhans kescomunya en freth.
Me a wel y'wedh, dr'es'ta arta ow 'saya enworra kebmys samplys a "yn kever + noun" et agas post del ellowgh ;)
Nag ew dhe les dhebm settya lahys dhewgh. Mens a vadna'ma gwul ew clappya 'dro dhe daclow ew dhe les dhebm heb den veth, pocar ha whei, dhe leverel dhebm, na dalvia dhebm y wul, meur ras dhe whei!

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Anselm
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by Anselm » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:22 am

Askusyow gwann erbynn an eur ma!
Kepar dell leveris vy, dhyn ni may fern agan yeth, hy devnydhya hi a vynn. Dhe'n re neb a vynn gul 'klywyewgh' bras rag dyllo omglywansow kemmyskys po rag meneges tybyansow moy hwath aga hemmyskans, prest dasleverel an keth traow yn kever Kernewek ha folsa an keth blew ytho a vern - yn Sowsnek heb mar. Mars eus hwans dhe dus gul yndella, gwyns tek war aga lergh - mes ny dal dhedha supposya oberi a-barth Kernewek.
Ny'm beus surnedh ow bones ow konvedhes an pyth yth esos owth assaya y leverel yn kever 'yn kever'. A esos owth assaya ow lesta rag kewsel yn kever traow diblans? Py rag? Styrya ty gwra, mar plek!
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

Morvil
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by Morvil » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:07 am

Th ero’vy ow perthy awher a’n taves. Th ero’ma ow cara an taves. Rag hedna me a’n dyskis ha rag hedna th ero’ma orth y whithra gwella galla’.
Scant nag ew an dadhlow ma ow tochya phonologieth adro dhe wul “clewyewgh” bo assaya sordya marth en tus dre dhyscans a yethow. Th ew ’dro dhe dhos nessa gellyn reb phonologieth Kernowek hengovek. Aban ujy ober a’n par ma owth avisya an phonologieth hag an dastrehevyans a Gernowek Dasserhys, hemm ew dres ehen en spyrys ha dhe brow an Dasserghyans. Mar na vi unver genam, da lowr, henn ew dha wir.
Bes na dalvia dhis bos kebmys a fekyl cher dha honan! Byttiwedh y feus’ta jy neb na alja degemeres studh an termyn e’n bledhydnyow 1970 pan era en gwir e’ta udn form fastys a Gernowek Dasserhys: Kernewek Unyes. Che dha honan a wrug ombalas aber’ en ober dastrehevyans ha creatya dha phonologieth jy dha honan ha scrifa composter dh’y ewna. Ytho, th ero’ma ow crejy y bos’ta tabm tont dhe gussulya, del vo warbydn an taves cowsys hedhyw, pan ujy onan owth obery war phonologieth an henyeth!
Del woryn nei en ta, ma braster an Dasserghyans Kernowek ow comprehendya tus a wrug dysky onan a’n patrons dastrehevyans rag an Kernowek avel second yeth, adar mabmyeth.
Pella, th ew mar vian an poll a gowsoryon genesik ha dispersys, na ellyn nei cowsel whath a gemynieth a gowsoryon neo-genesik, kynth ew res bos praysys, heb mar, diwysicter hag ober ragresek an gerens a hedhas, en gwiryonedh, maga ’ga flehes anjei en Kernowek.
Py le th es’ta ow cossulya del venja an dus na, neb a vedh dhe’ga prow dadhla adro dhe phonologieth an Kernowek hengovek, hag ’della phonologieth an Kernowek Dasserhys, gwul endella? Th es’ta owth mellya orth bagasow deges a ober der eseleth ha bos warbydn dadhlansow a’n par na. Pandr’ew gerys?
Na alla’ma bes supposya dr’eus dhis reson cudh dhe worfedna dadhlansow a’n par na, m’alles ta surhe studh an termyn a radn, en udnik, a’n movyans dasserghyans en Kernow.
Y’wedh, th es’ta owth apperya dhe dhisputya warbydn braster a dus orth an kescussulyans en Tremogh mayth eus whans dhodhans unya arta an movyans dre ordna furv scrifys savonys, furv a veu gorrys warbarth re scav ha ma fowt dhedhy a nowedhyansow, ma nag ew bes natural.
Y talvia dhe skians cressys ’dro dhe Gernowek hengovek, a veu dadhlys nanj ew an bledhydnyow 1980 diwedh, avisya an scrifa composter ma ha’y phonologieth.
Nag eus whans dhis, del vedn tus erel leverel dhis an peth dhe leverel ha gwul, ha fatel elles ta y wul! Da lowr! Me a’th pes jy, gwra revrons dhe radn aral neb a omglow e’n pocar maner.

PS: Na wra’ma vrei a’th us a “yn kever + noun”...

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Anselm
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by Anselm » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:07 am

Ny'm beus surnedh ow bones ow konvedhes yn-hwir an pyth yth esos owth assaya y leverel. Apert yw bones poenvotter warnas yn kever studh an yeth hedhyw, hag yth hevel dhymm bones hwans dhis orth tus pesya ow leverel an kyth traow arta hag arta, ha henna yn Sowsnek. Kepar dell leveris vy kyns, ny allav omwitha rag konkludya bones kewsel yn kever agan yeth yn Sowsnek poesekka gans nebes tus es gul devnydh a Gernewek hy honan. Ny wonn vy konvedhes henna, res dhymm y avowa.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by Anselm » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:45 am

Mes erbynn prederi, re beu hag yma elvenn a'n par na yn Iwerdhon, sev an re yn-unn gewsel heb hedhi yn kever Gwydhalek yn Sowsnek. Ha gisyow hevelyp lowr re's gwelis yn Breten Vyghan kefrys. Menegyans gwlaskerensa yw herwydh gis ky-fe, lemen oberi a-barth agan yeth nyns yw mann.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

Morvil
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by Morvil » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:49 pm

Tety valy, brabm an gath! Hab mar th ew possibel clappya 'dro dhe udn taves en ken onan! Rag sampel, whei 'ell dadhla Persyan en Frenkek, bo Inuktitut en Russek, bo Frisek en Almaynek. So, frag na elle'nei clappya 'dro dhe Gernowek en Sowsnek, bo Godhalek Wordhen en Sowsnek, bo Brethonek en Frenkek? Nag ero'vy ow convedhes 'gas resnans!

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factotum
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by factotum » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:13 pm

Sur, ow howeth, mez an poynt my a gryz yw, pyth yw an gwella fordh rag avonsye an yeth yn neb kas. Traweythyow y fydh Sowsneg dhe les, pryz arall, ny vydh. Ha dres oll, pur es yw boz meglyz yn dadhlow a-dro dhe'n yeth, yn le hy usye. Dell wonn vy, heb mar!

Morvil
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by Morvil » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:18 am

Me 'or fatel es'ta owth omglowes... byttegens, rag frag nag elle'nei gwul an dhew? Dadhla 'dro dhe'n taves en Sowsnek keffres ha clappya ha scrifa en Kernowek!

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factotum
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Re: Orthography, Revival and Change.

Post by factotum » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:15 am

Ni a yll, hag a wra. Dhe'n leha, yma nebez Kerneweg dhe voz gwelyz omma a dro dhe dro. Mez yn mysk an arbennigoryon dhe'n rol "Spellyans" ny welav marnaz Sowsneg heb lett. Pandr'a yll den kavoez gwir 'omglywans' (po -glewans!) a'n yeth heb hy redye, hy skrife, ha'y hewsel? Heb usye an yeth avel toul dien, fatell a alse hy rannow boz gwelyz y'ga perspective? Hebdho y teuth an wokkineth a welir ena ogas pubtydh-oll.

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