An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

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Karesk
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Karesk » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:30 am

Ottomma whedhel a glewis vy a dro dhe’n kynsa bible Kernewek o skrifys nans yw tredhek kansblydhen.
Yn dydhyow Myghtern Gerens, yth esa trigys yn Kernow dewdhek sans ha tri ugens. Yn Pow Sows yth esa tri po peswar anetha hepken, Aldhelm a Lanproboes (hem yw Sherbourne yn Sowsnek) y’ga mysk. Ny vedha gis Aldhelm gorwolghi, ha pan wodrigas ev yn Kernow, ny ylli an syns kernewek esedha ogas dhodho awos fler a dho anodho. Serrys o Aldhelm hag ev a skrifys lyther dhe’n myghtern. Ynno ev a leveris bos kryjians an Gernowyon kamm yn tien.
Gerens a gelwys y syns y honan warbarth hag ev a wovynnas orta mars o henna gwir.
Ny yllyn ny leverel, yn medhens i, marnas y hwren ni treylyans nowydh an Bibel dhiworth an kottha mammskrifow; ha rag previ y gewerder, ny a vynn gul kepar ha’n dhoethyon goth grek . Ni a vynn agan omgeas pubonan dh’y log y honan dewdhek dydh ha tri ugens. Ena ni a wra keheveli agan treylyansow.
Hag yndella y hwrussens i. Dhe benn dewdhek dydh ha tri ugens, dos yn mes a’ga logow a wrug an dewdhek sans ha tri ugans, ha lenna aga threylyansow. Hag a’n kynsa treylyans dhe’n unnegves ha tri ugens, kehevelep ens i yn pub ger.
Ena yn medh an dewettha sans: yth eson ni yn Kernow adar Pow Grek. Ankernewek yw unnverheans. Res yw dhymm chanjya ow threylyans. Martesen my a wra gorra ynno nebes geryow Sowsnek, hag y lytherenna yn tihaval.
Yndella y feun ni benigys gans dew vibel Kernewek.

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Evertype
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Evertype » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:54 am

Palores wrote:In UC and UCR the word for 'bible' was spelled bybel. Whence cometh the <ey> in Beybel?
Thank you for your interesting question. The earliest mention I have in my files is a comment Nicholas made on the private UdnFormScrefys list on 2 May 2008:
Golvan wrote:Nance in 1938 and 1951 give Bybel with a macron over the <y> as the form of this word. It is also preceded by an asterisk since the word has been borrowed from Breton, which has borrowed from French.

In Middle Cornish the word for the Old and New Testaments together is usually scryptur, scryptur benegys. This latter term is attested more than once:

rak an scryptor bynyges reys yv y vos guyr porrys PC 1073-74
Dre an spuris sans an scripturs benegas a ve kefys, gwrys ha skryffes TH 6
kyn rellens y groundya aga honyn apparantly war an scriptur benegas TH 32a.

It is unlikely that Celtophone Cornishmen and Cornishwomen before the Reformation used the word 'Bible' very much. After the Reformation, however, actual copies of scripture became readily available and a term for the actual book would have become necessary. In which case the Cornish would have borrowed the word from English, as did the Welsh. The Cornish word for 'Bible' ought therefore be *Beybel (cf. Welsh Beibl).

Notice that the Manx use the form Bible, clearly borrowed from English and the Scots call it Am Bìobull, which has been borrowed from Scottish English.

The Irish on the other hand call the Bible 'An Bíobla'. Oddly enough this is from Middle English. Had the Cornish similarly borrowed the word from Middle English, it would appear in Cornish as *Byble, *Bybla.

Nance's Bȳbel, the Bibel of the SWF is without justification.
One might quibble with the tone of Nicholas' "without justification" since Nance's "justification" was simply that a neologism was required to fill a gap, and he calqued on Breton rather than Welsh. I agree with Nicholas' judgement, however, that if the word had been borrowed, it is more likely to have been borrowed from English after the Great Vowel Shift and the Reformation, as [ʹbəɪbəl], which we write Beybel. (An older *bybla might well have ended up with a short vowel [ˈbɪblə] or [ˈbɪbəl] rather than Nance's [ˈbiːbəl] anyway.)

The form "Beybel" has also been used in Nicholas' translations of Devocyon an Greryow and in Enys Tresour.

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Evertype
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Evertype » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:59 pm

In response to some queries, Nicholas has said the following on Spellyans today:
Golvan wrote:Some people are querying the use of Beybel for 'Bible' in Cornish and are pointing out that both UC and indeed UCR used Bybel. *Bybel is Nance's coinage and first appears in his 1938 Cornish-English Dictionary.

*Bybel (KK Bibel) is borrowed from Modern Breton Bibl and seems to me to be an impossible form in Cornish.

George in his most recent dictionary suggests that Bibel is from English from French. Since the vowel is long [iː] the word would have been borrowed before the English Great Vowel Shift, i.e. before the fifteenth century. But before the shift the word would have ended with final schwa, and would have therefore have been borrowed into Cornish as [biːblə], written Byble, Bybla, Bibla. This is the form in which the Middle English word was borrowed into Irish: Bíobla.

In the Cornish texts (OCV, PC, RD, Beunans Meriasek, Tregear, Sacrament an Alter, Lhuyd's Preface) the Bible is referred to as an scryptour or an scryptours. There are about 80 examples.

If the word 'Bible' was borrowed into Cornish from English, and there are no attested examples, it was almost certainly borrowed after the Reformation. It was as a result of the Reformation that the scriptures were translated into the vernacular and thus one-volume portable Bibles became common. Only after the Reformation would a word for 'Bible' have been necessary in Cornish. If the word was borrowed into Cornish at or after the Reformation, it would have been taken from English and would have contained a diphthong in the stressed vowel: [bəibl]. Such a form would naturally have been written Beybel in Cornish. This is exactly the form in which it appears in Welsh: Beibl. It is for this reason that our Cornish version of the Bible bears the title AN BEYBEL SANS.

The Cornish for 'Bible' is Beybel. Cornish *Bybla, *Bîbla from Middle English is a possibility (though unattested). UC, UCR Bybel, KK Bibel is, I believe, mistaken.

Nicholas

Karesk
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Karesk » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:26 pm

Anselm wrote:Karesk - martesen, y fydh aghskrifow a is arta? Gans nebes gweres?
Evertype a allsa dendil kals bras a vona rag skoedhya an projekt ma. Tus a vynsa y wobra yn ta hag ev ow heworra henwyn aga hendasow dhe aghskrifow fleghes Ysrael.

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by GanO » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:15 pm

Karesk a gamscryfas, "…hag ev ow heworra…"

Ewnscryfys, hen a vya "…hag ef ow keworra…" del grysaf, marnas ty a styryas neppyth kepar ha, "…and he my add…"

Res perthy cof bos peswar ger scryfys 'ow' yn Kernewek:
-- an hanow gwan pewek = 'ow' + trelyans whethys (stat 3)
-- temmygen an amser present parhus = 'ow' + trelyans cales (stat 4)
-- an garm-er = Ow! (hep trelyans vyth orth y sewya)
-- form trelyes medhal a'n hanow 'gow', tra methus ny welyn-ny vyth war an forum gwyryon-ma, hep ow!

Na vedhens an mater-ma tyckly dhys na fella, sos.
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

Karesk
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Karesk » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:31 pm

GanO wrote:Karesk a gamscryfas, "…hag ev ow heworra…"

Ewnscryfys, hen a vya "…hag ef ow keworra…" del grysaf, marnas ty a styryas neppyth kepar ha, "…and he my add…"

Res perthy cof bos peswar ger scryfys 'ow' yn Kernewek:
-- an hanow gwan pewek = 'ow' + trelyans whethys (stat 3)
-- temmygen an amser present parhus = 'ow' + trelyans cales (stat 4)
-- an garm-er = Ow! (hep trelyans vyth orth y sewya)
-- form trelyes medhal a'n hanow 'gow', tra methus ny welyn-ny vyth war an forum gwyryon-ma, hep ow!

Na vedhens an mater-ma tyckly dhys na fella, sos.
Heb wow, ni a wra kammwul treweythyow, agan dew.

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by GanO » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:57 pm

Karesk a scryfas (moy po le), "Hep wow, ny a wra camwul trawythyow, agan deu."

Hep ow na gow, ass yu henna gwyrra es an gwyr yn whyr! Otta hunlef a'n jeves pup scryfer ha trelyer ha dyller a'gan tavas bryntyn-ny del grysaf. Mes 'ny fyllyr a'n gosten hep hy attamya', dhe vathy lavar 'coth'!
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

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Anselm
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Anselm » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:05 pm

Ha war an notenn na, y hyllyn ni oll mones yn-kerdh yn-unn omlowenhe.
Anselm

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'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Anselm » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:07 pm

'UC, UCR Bybel, KK Bibel is, I believe, mistaken.'
Po da ganso po mann, ott an pyth a vydh leverys genen. Diwedh an hwedhel.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
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Cornish Pirates

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Evertype » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:36 am

No, Tybm, what was said to you was this:

1. A word for 'bible' is not attested in Traditional Cornish.

2. Nance filled a gap by borrowing bȳbel ([ˈbiːbəl], "beeble") directly from Breton bibl (which comes directly from French).

3. Cornish would have borrowed the word from Middle English (before the Great Vowel Shift) or from Early Modern English (post-Reformation), and not from Breton or French.

4. The Middle English bible was [ˈbiːblə] ("beebla") and if that had been borrowed we would have Cornish bîbla ("beebla") or bybla ("bibbla"), not bîbel ("beeble"). Irish did the same and has bíobla [ˈbʲiːblə].

5. Cornish people probably didn't really talk about bibles (big portable translations) until after the Reformation anyway, which means it is more likely that they would have borrowed the word after the Great Vowel Shift, in which case it would be beybel [ˈbəɪbəl], similar to Welsh beibl.

6. Nance would have made a better choice had he followed the Welsh than the Breton (in Nicholas' view, and in mine).

7. We're using beybel for good linguistic reasons as outlined, because we think it is the more authentic of the choices available.

8. You can do as you please.

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Karesk » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:48 am

Evertype, I'm sure that's what Nicholas means to say. But then he would be better avoiding making statements like: "The Cornish for 'Bible' is Beybel."

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Marhak
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Marhak » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:37 am

Does anyone have anything nice to say about the achievement, about the fact that someone has actually gone to the massive effort of doing this, and the fact there is now a complete Cornish Bible for the first time in history?

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Evertype » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:52 am

Karesk wrote:Evertype, I'm sure that's what Nicholas means to say. But then he would be better avoiding making statements like: "The Cornish for 'Bible' is Beybel."
How does this differ from Nance or George saying "The Cornish for 'Bible' is Bȳbel/Bibel."? It's just as conjectural.

How does it differ from Williams saying that "The Cornish for 'Cornish language' is Kernowek."? (Answer: That form is attested while Kernewek is not.)

OK, he might've said "The Cornish for 'Bible' should be Beybel." Would that make you happier? And another question for you: Now that I have set out (in the 8 points above) the rationale for preferring [ˈbəɪbəl] to [ˈbiːbəl] (or to the expected Middle English borrowing [ˈbiːblə]), which form do you think should be used? Only [ˈbəɪbəl] and [ˈbiːblə] are historically likely forms.
Last edited by Evertype on Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Evertype » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:58 am

Marhak wrote:Does anyone have anything nice to say about the achievement, about the fact that someone has actually gone to the massive effort of doing this, and the fact there is now a complete Cornish Bible for the first time in history?
In case you were interested, An Beybel Sans contains (during its last stage of correction) 817,220 words.

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Karesk » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:43 am

Evertype wrote:
Karesk wrote:Evertype, I'm sure that's what Nicholas means to say. But then he would be better avoiding making statements like: "The Cornish for 'Bible' is Beybel."
How does this differ from Nance or George saying "The Cornish for 'Bible' is Bȳbel/Bibel."? It's just as conjectural.

How does it differ from Williams saying that "The Cornish for 'Cornish language' is Kernowek."? (Answer: That form is attested while Kernewek is not.)

OK, he might've said "The Cornish for 'Bible' should be Beybel." Would that make you happier? And another question for you: Now that I have set out (in the 8 points above) the rationale for preferring [ˈbəɪbəl] to [ˈbiːbəl] (or to the expected Middle English borrowing [ˈbiːblə]), which form do you think should be used? Only [ˈbəɪbəl] and [ˈbiːblə] are historically likely forms.
I may well have done as much talking about the bible in Cornish as I will ever want to do. It's possible I may never use any Cornish word for bible again. It appears to me that bybel, bibel, and beybel were all historically unknown forms prior to the 20th century, since when Breton has been a popular source of loan words into Cornish for reasons that have present-day cultural relevance. Beybel was a historically unknown form until very recently. If the argument is that it is a 21st century loan from 21st century English, that makes sense but I don't see why it is necessary when there is already a modern loan word in widespread use. But I think the argument is that it is the form of the word that would have been borrowed into 16th century Cornish from 16th century English. Who knows? And maybe if the Irish could borrow the word from Middle English, so could the Cornish. I thought, though, that the revival was a collective project to bring a relevant modern form of Cornish back into use. In that process, I think some choices have already been made and I don't think they can be revoked by edict from any individual. I doubt if all the speakers of Cornish have yet stopped thinking that the Cornish for bible is bibel.

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