An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

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Karesk
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Karesk » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:21 am

Marhak wrote:Does anyone have anything nice to say about the achievement, about the fact that someone has actually gone to the massive effort of doing this, and the fact there is now a complete Cornish Bible for the first time in history?
My a skrifas: "Kowlwrians marthys yw treylians an bibel ha res yw keslowenhe Nicholas Williams."

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factotum
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by factotum » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:07 pm

Keresk : Dha hwedhel yw porran "yn lagaz y le" dell leverel an Gembreyon, po "spot on" yn kows an Sowson.

It would be interesting to see the sales figures for the two versions of the NT.

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factotum
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by factotum » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:08 pm

Oops, for 'leverel' read 'lever'

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factotum
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by factotum » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:40 pm

Again, I'm with Keresk. To sum up :

If trad. Cornish had a word for 'Bible' (which is likely but unproven), it might have been borrowed :
*** from Latin or French, like Breton;
*** from Middle English, like Irish;
*** from local dialect English, like Scots Gaidhlig;
*** from Early Modern English, like Welsh.

Given rise to three or even four possible reconstruction at the very least. As the word is not attested we have no clear basis for choosing between the alternatives. NJAW believes the 'Welsh' path the most likely, but this is simply an unsubstantiated opinion, it has not been backed by any facts, or even deduced from facts.

The word in all forms of revived Cornish heretofore is bibel, formerly spelled 'bybel'. This is neither an opinion nor is it an deduction, it is an easily verified fact.

Diwedh an dhadhel, unless some hard evidence of the trad. form comes to light. Should that ever happen there could be a debate as to whether a correction would be in order, or whether the form we all actually use is too well-established to warrant meddling with. But since there is no such evidence, the issue doesn't arise.

As always NJAW and his little helpers and simply making trouble for the sheer devilment of it, and damaging the Revival in the process.

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Evertype
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Evertype » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:30 pm

Karesk wrote:It appears to me that bybel, bibel, and beybel were all historically unknown forms prior to the 20th century, since when Breton has been a popular source of loan words into Cornish for reasons that have present-day cultural relevance.
Nance borrowed from both Welsh and Breton.
Beybel was a historically unknown form until very recently.
Yes, that's so.
If the argument is that it is a 21st century loan from 21st century English, that makes sense but I don't see why it is necessary when there is already a modern loan word in widespread use.
Revivalists have often found it worth while looking at loanwords and examining their suitability and accuracy.
But I think the argument is that it is the form of the word that would have been borrowed into 16th century Cornish from 16th century English.
Yes, that's so.
Who knows? And maybe if the Irish could borrow the word from Middle English, so could the Cornish.
In that case the word would be bîbla [ˈbiːblə], not bîbel [ˈbiːbəl] (like Irish bíobla). I thought that had been made clear.
I thought, though, that the revival was a collective project to bring a relevant modern form of Cornish back into use.
It is. And part of that process involves examining the evidence and examining linguistic likelihoods and unlikelihoods. It is unlikely that the form bîbel would have been found in Traditional Cornish (for instance, its long vowel would probably have shortened from beeble to bibble). It is likely that the form would either have been bîbla or beybel depending on when the word was borrowed.
In that process, I think some choices have already been made and I don't think they can be revoked by edict from any individual.
Edict? There are edicts everywhere in the Revival. UC skül was one of Nance's choices. Most agree on skeul now.
I doubt if all the speakers of Cornish have yet stopped thinking that the Cornish for bible is bibel.
And you may certainly do as you please. The title of our book, however, is An Beybel Sans, because we believe that to be a better, more authentic Cornish form than the form devised by Nance.

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Evertype
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Evertype » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:45 pm

factotum wrote:As the word is not attested we have no clear basis for choosing between the alternatives. NJAW believes the 'Welsh' path the most likely, but this is simply an unsubstantiated opinion, it has not been backed by any facts, or even deduced from facts.
The opinion has been substantiated several times, and the facts from which it has been deduced have been described and discussed above. Try for at least a tiny bit of intellectual honesty, Keith. I know it's a stretch for you, but I believe you could manage it if you really wanted to. :roll:
As always NJAW and his little helpers and simply making trouble for the sheer devilment of it, and damaging the Revival in the process.
I wondered which tack you would take. I thought it might be "someone else has been working on it", or "nobody wants to read it anyway". Instead you picked "you're doing this to destroy the Revival".
It's worth recalling what Craig said the other day:
Marhak wrote:Nothing like a momentous publication to bring out the curmudgeons.

The first ever Cornish Bible is THE most momentous achievement in the history of the language. We were denied it 462 years ago. Some, like Rowe, started it but never got very far. In the 107 years of the revival it's been talked about and talked about, but it was never done. Now that it has been done, all Palores can do is denigrate the translator. How very sad can that be?
Not that we expected anything less from either you or Palores, Keith.

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Marhak
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Marhak » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:10 pm

Sitting on one's backside, pontificating and producing nothing really helps the revival, then, Keith.

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Anselm
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Anselm » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:30 pm

An keth hwedhel koth: ny woer map y dhama agan yeth, ny vynn ev kewsel genen ni, ha nyns eus ganso dustuni. Dh'y dybyansow nyns eus sel marnas ... y dybyansow y honan!

'Bibel' ha gisyow war henna usi genen ni, hag y fydh edhomm a dhorgren-yeth rag nowis henna. A wra an treylyans ma skila dorgren a'n par na? Ny wonn. Gwren ni gweles!
Anselm

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'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
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GanO
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by GanO » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:59 pm

Marhak wrote:Sitting on one's backside, pontificating and producing nothing really helps the revival, then, Keith.
Myr ha gwyr yu'n ger a leversys, Marghak! Abarth an jawl! Ot an loselwas lovrek-na a'y eseth ha'y ben (del us usyes dhodho) yn ban lagas y tyn, yn un gyny bos fler caugh gans pup tra y'n Dasserghyans—ha hep dhodho gul tra vyth nefra dhe weres y Gesgernewegoryon. 'Styn dhym an sagh-wheja, y'th pysaf, sos!

Yma'n Beybel Sans-ma martesen an dyllans moyha y vry a welas Kernow ha'y thus vyth dres oll aga ystory.

Mes pyth a glewyn-ny dyworth Keith ha'y golytys Emskemmynnyes erel? Tra vyth saw crothvolas cryn crefny ma nag yua scryfys y'ga skyl-Gernewek dygnas!

A'm ran-vy, hag a ran Gwask an Orlewen, dhya woles ow holon y keslowenhaf Nicholas Williams, Michael Everson (ha pup huny a'ga hesoberoryon) a gowlwruthyl ober mar vryntyn avel hemma!

Dew re dallo dheugh why!
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

carrek
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by carrek » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:36 pm

Dhe'm bres vy hemm ew ensampel aral a gelgh-omruttya academek, dres cans bledhen th era ger rag an lever, ger gwerek ha godhvedhys da.

Nag ujy Nicholas bus owth arhele udn dhamcanieth gen damcanieth aral. Nag ew an eyl moy warrantus vel y gela. Th erom ow qwerthveurhe en town ober Nicholas, agan yeth a via gweth hebdho, bus ma hebma gen bibel/beybel ow mos re hir en bys cragh-scolhygieth. Nag era cudyn veth dhe nebonen gen an ger, na ero'nei cawas chanjyans a-barth chanjyans. Nag eus edhom dhe nei a dhibarthow moy e'n dasserghyans. Py ger a vedh nessa? 'Kernow'?
Last edited by carrek on Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Anselm
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Anselm » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 pm

Amen, hag Amen!
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
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Evertype
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Evertype » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:24 pm

You're quick to criticize, Jed, but I note that a number of the words in what you've just written are found only in Nicholas' UCR dictionary. Opinions differ on a number of features of the Revived language. Nicholas makes informed choices. Sorry if you like some of them and dislike others, but that's the way things are.

Michael

carrek
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by carrek » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:51 pm

Evertype wrote:You're quick to criticize, Jed, but I note that a number of the words in what you've just written are found only in Nicholas' UCR dictionary. Opinions differ on a number of features of the Revived language. Nicholas makes informed choices. Sorry if you like some of them and dislike others, but that's the way things are.

Michael
Me a wrug leverel "Th erom ow qwerthveurhe en town ober Nicholas, agan yeth a via gweth hebdho." Nag eus corrosy dhebm warbydn Nicholas. Bus nag erom orth y sewya en tall. Ow thybyansow ew formys dre bredery, a-dar bagasieth bian. Th erom ow kemeres y erviryansow onen hag onen.

Th erom owth usya gerlever Nicholas drefen y vos gerlever pur dha. Nag eus geryow lowr dhe erlever Ken.

Geryow ew usyes dres degvledhednow ha degvledhednow, ha tus ew gyllys usys gansans. Na vedn anjei puppres chanjya an fordh ujons ow cowsel drefen udn dhen dhe formya damcanieth nowyth. Drog ew genam mar nag ew da genes hedna, bus henn ew an fordh ew taclow.

Nag era edhom dhe nei chanjya an ger 'bibel'. Nag era dhe nebonen cudyn ganso. Nag ujy ow cul tra veth bus formya dibarthow moy, ha moy, ha moy, ha moy........ Dhe'm bres vy ev eth re bell. Yethoryon, gerowgh agan yeth anella!

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Anselm
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Anselm » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:02 pm

Gwir an ger ...
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

Morvil
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Morvil » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:10 pm

Since *Bybel, *Bibel and *Beybel are unattested, why not use the attested An Scriptur? While I follow Nicholas' argument concerning his personal preference of *Beybel, I think we should look to Nance here as this word has been in use in Revived Cornish at least since 1938. If a traditional Cornish text were to be discovered giving evidence of *Beybel I'd be the first to advocate change to the more authentic form, but until then, in my opinion, the traditions of the Revival should be respected.

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