An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

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Evertype
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Evertype » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:22 am

carrek wrote:m ow qwerthveurhe en town ober Nicholas, agan yeth a via gweth hebdho."
Yes, and then you accused him of pedantry.
Th erom ow kemeres y erviryansow onen hag onen.
As an aside, it seems to me that "Th'erof vy kemeres" is a more likely formulation than "Th'erom ow kemeres". Of course I might be mistaken.
Th erom owth usya gerlever Nicholas drefen y vos gerlever pur dha. Nag eus geryow lowr dhe erlever Ken.
The same principles Nicholas used in devising words in his very good dictionary are the ones he has applied in making this recent choice. But you are free to pick and choose.
Geryow ew usyes dres degvledhednow ha degvledhednow, ha tus ew gyllys usys gansans.
Lots of folks have used in kever for a long time, too. That doesn't make it good Cornish.
Na vedn anjei puppres chanjya an fordh ujons ow cowsel drefen udn dhen dhe formya damcanieth nowyth. Drog ew genam mar nag ew da genes hedna, bus henn ew an fordh ew taclow.
I'm not bothered by the fact that you have an opinion. You are of course welcome to have an opinion. Beybel is not just a matter of theory, however. Middle English bible would have ended up as bîbla in Cornish. Early Modern English would have ended up as beybel.
Nag era edhom dhe nei chanjya an ger 'bibel'.
There wasn't any "need" for Ken George to change from othem/ethom with [θ] to edhom with [ð], but he did so on foot of a comment Kenneth Jackson made about a Breton word. You're using that word, evidently unaware that it is theoretically problematic. We prefer othem. Are you going to complain about that?
Last edited by Evertype on Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Evertype » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:27 am

Morvil wrote:Since *Bybel, *Bibel and *Beybel are unattested, why not use the attested An Scriptur?
Because there is a difference between "scripture" and a "bible".
While I follow Nicholas' argument concerning his personal preference of *Beybel, I think we should look to Nance here as this word has been in use in Revived Cornish at least since 1938.
I understand that you do. There a number of elements in Nance 1938 which we (and you) no longer support.
If a traditional Cornish text were to be discovered giving evidence of *Beybel I'd be the first to advocate change to the more authentic form, but until then, in my opinion, the traditions of the Revival should be respected.
Our preference for beybel over bîbel is not a sign of disrespect for "the traditions of the Revival".

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Mark
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Mark » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:01 am

As a Cornishman who is regaining his mother-tongue (and in a form not preferable to everyone - so what), I am bemused and more than a little pissed off, about all this bickering (and not just this). It is so tedious. We have the first full translation of the Bible, which in itself is a monumental achievement, in my opinion. I am not religious in anyway but can see that this is only a good thing. If you don't like what you see, so what? Has your leg dropped off because of its existence?
Where's the respect? 'Well done, I might not agree with all you've come up with but bleddy well done anyway!' I never see that... It's about time to grow up!

How some of you expect our language to survive while you carry on like this makes me, to be honest, f**king teazy <insert any other dialectical spelling>!

Who knew that trying to learn the language you should've been speaking anyway, would turn into such a shitstorm?! :evil:
As long as a hundred of us remain alive, we shall never give in to the domination of the English. We fight not for glory, not for wealth nor honours but only and alone for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life...

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Anselm » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:57 am

Yma elvenn a wiryonedh yn hemma. Y fydh meur y les difheruek ow kehavalhe an dhew dreylyans.
Anselm

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'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
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Marhak
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Marhak » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:43 am

Well written, Mark. That needed saying. As usual, it's not about the language, the achievement, or the huge contribution the Bible will make - it's about the prejudice of a few against the translator. Which does more harm to the revival than anything else.

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Tennven » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:37 am

The only merits of a bible in Cornish, is that it's in Cornish, so congratulations on producing the largest fictional work in Cornish yet...

On a personal note it's a shame it wasn't in SWF, but I know your arguments for KS and besides it's subject matter puts me off far more...

Please keep producing Cornish works (so be it if they're in KS) but please no more bibles/beybels/bibels or biblas!

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by carrek » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:34 am

Evertype wrote:
carrek wrote:m ow qwerthveurhe en town ober Nicholas, agan yeth a via gweth hebdho."
Yes, and then you accused him of pedantry.
Peth ew dha boynt? A nag ellam gwerthveurhe y ober hag orth an keth termyn gelwel onen a'y erviryansow ow qwandra en cragh-scolhygieth?
Evertype wrote:
Th erom ow kemeres y erviryansow onen hag onen.
As an aside, it seems to me that "Th'erof vy kemeres" is a more likely formulation than "Th'erom ow kemeres". Of course I might be mistaken.
Peth ew dha boynt? Gas agan yeth anella.
Evertype wrote:
Th erom owth usya gerlever Nicholas drefen y vos gerlever pur dha. Nag eus geryow lowr dhe erlever Ken.
The same principles Nicholas used in devising words in his very good dictionary are the ones he has applied in making this recent choice. But you are free to pick and choose.
Che a lavar gwir, me a ell dowis woja redya y acheson rag y erviryans. Na vednam y sewya heb govyn. Na vednam sewya nebonen heb govyn.
Evertype wrote:
Geryow ew usyes dres degvledhednow ha degvledhednow, ha tus ew gyllys usys gansans.
Lots of folks have used in kever for a long time, too. That doesn't make it good Cornish.
Che a lavar gwir arta, bus an dyffrans ew 'yn kever' a ell bos prevys dhe vos cabm dre vires orth an textow. 'Beybel' ew damcanieth. Nag eus prevy, ma damcanieth hepken. Nag eus gans Nicholas bus arhelys udn dhamcanieth gen damcanieth aral.
Evertype wrote:
Na vedn anjei puppres chanjya an fordh ujons ow cowsel drefen udn dhen dhe formya damcanieth nowyth. Drog ew genam mar nag ew da genes hedna, bus henn ew an fordh ew taclow.
I'm not bothered by the fact that you have an opinion. You are of course welcome to have an opinion. Beybel is not just a matter of theory, however. Middle English bible would have ended up as bîbla in Cornish. Early Modern English would have ended up as beybel.
"a wrussa", "a wrussa". A veu'che ena? A wos ta en certan? Damcanieth ew. Che a ell naha hebma mar meur dre vednes, bus na wra y lettya bos gwir.
Evertype wrote:
Nag era edhom dhe nei chanjya an ger 'bibel'.
There wasn't any "need" for Ken George to change from othem/ethom with [θ] to edhom with [ð], but he did so on foot of a comment Kenneth Jackson made about a Breton word. You're using that word, evidently unaware that it is theoretically problematic. We prefer othem. Are you going to complain about that?
Peth ew an dyffrans ynter hebma ha 'beybel'? Udn dhamcanieth hag udn dhamcanieth aral.

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by CJenkin » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:48 am

I may well have done as much talking about the bible in Cornish as I will ever want to do. It's possible I may never use any Cornish word for bible again. It appears to me that bybel, bibel, and beybel were all historically unknown forms prior to the 20th century, since when Breton has been a popular source of loan words into Cornish for reasons that have present-day cultural relevance. Beybel was a historically unknown form until very recently. If the argument is that it is a 21st century loan from 21st century English, that makes sense but I don't see why it is necessary when there is already a modern loan word in widespread use. But I think the argument is that it is the form of the word that would have been borrowed into 16th century Cornish from 16th century English. Who knows? And maybe if the Irish could borrow the word from Middle English, so could the Cornish. I thought, though, that the revival was a collective project to bring a relevant modern form of Cornish back into use. In that process, I think some choices have already been made and I don't think they can be revoked by edict from any individual. I doubt if all the speakers of Cornish have yet stopped thinking that the Cornish for bible is bibel

Gorthyp da! Nyns yw 'Logic' da gans NIcholas ha Michael. Yth esa bibel latin kyns an 'reformation' ha pobel a gernow a gews frynkek ha bretonek (ha sowsnek ynweth) kyns henna. Piw a woer an ger rag an lyver na? Lemmyn ni a wra defnythya ger Nance ha henn yw bibel. An 'beybel' o lyver pryntyas dyworth sowsnek dell brederav. Yw treylyans nowydh dyworth sowsnek? (po an Greka?).

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Karesk » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:10 pm

[quote="Evertype"]Beybel is not just a matter of theory, however. Middle English bible would have ended up as bîbla in Cornish. Early Modern English would have ended up as beybel.

Otena gormola ragos!

Evertype, ny dybav vy denvyth dhe wul fors fatell skrif Nicholas an ger. Ty a wovynnas orthyn fatell garsen ni y lytherenna, ha nebes gorthybow a'fydh. Pyth yw an kudynn?
Last edited by Karesk on Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Marhak
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Marhak » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:22 pm

Like you, Tennven, I look upon the Bible as an interesting collection of Middle Eastern myths and legends, but it does mean something more to other people. There's no doubt that the existence of a Bible in a particular language has worked wonders for that language, and it's to be hoped that this will do likewise for Cornish.

I'm a bit nauseated that so many are questioning 'Beybel' when they all use 'yeth' for 'language'. This was not genuinely Cornish, but a Nance construct - he didn't see the only attestation of the word in Tregear - eyth. So, 'eyth' is the genuinely Cornish word - but, for some unexplained reason, we're all still using the artificial construct and calling it Cornish.

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by carrek » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:24 pm

'Beybel' is just one example of a much wider problem. The linguists are coming up with theory after theory, change after change, resulting in the language becoming less and less stable, ultimately hindering its teaching and dissemination. The language is their linguistic play-thing, free to tweak and modify whenever they come up with a new theory, under the label of "authenticism". Anyone who doesn't follow their edict gets accused of not caring for the language and not being appreciative of their efforts.

(Hemm ew prag mon'jei ow pesya gen KS, drefen nag ellon'jei chanjya an FSS mar es, heb mos dres an canellow gwiw)

Pity that their care and effort only extends to their academic interest in the traditional language. If their constant modifications and academic pontificating put off the language being the national language of Cornwall again for another century, then, they say, so be it. In fact, some of them aren't even working towards that goal, assuming it'll never happen. For them, Cornish is just an interesting hobby. But for some of us, it is our identity and our future. Therein lies the problem. We don't have time for this kind of semantics.

And before Michael goes off on one, I'm not talking about anyone in particular.

Changing "yn kever", based on textual analysis and consensus, was the right decision. Changing "bibel" (and how many other words), based solely on a conjectural theory and a unilateral edict, was not. It wasn't right in KK and it's not right in KS.
Last edited by carrek on Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Marhak
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Marhak » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:36 pm

For reasons similar to yours, I've pretty well laid off the language for a while now - just translating a few kids' books into SWF(T) and advising the Signage Panel. One can get a little tired of the endless: "we're right - you're wrong" ever-decreasing circles.

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Karesk » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:47 pm

Marhak wrote:For reasons similar to yours, I've pretty well laid off the language for a while now - just translating a few kids' books into SWF(T) and advising the Signage Panel. One can get a little tired of the endless: "we're right - you're wrong" ever-decreasing circles.
Well, there are worse things you could do than getting the language up on signs around Cornwall and putting out books for children in a form that has some claim to be part of a consensual process.

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Marhak
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Marhak » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:29 pm

That's true, and I can do it all on my ownsome right here. The SWF might not be perfect, but it does at least cater for preferences, and doesn't cater for egos. My preference, as you know, is for traditional graphs and it lets me use them, rather than dictate to me. (I do rather like the Late Cornish variants within the SWF which, when written like Morvil does, has a great look to it. I haven't yet studied at the methods in detail - ooh, I'll get it now - aesthetics before linguistics!). So far, the Signage Panel has agreed a whole sight more than it's disagreed, and there have been some great exchanges and discussions. This has to be good, because I, for one, am well weary of the arguments and snipings.

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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Marhak » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:08 pm

That the Bible's in KS shouldn't bother anyone. If you can read other forms of Cornish, you can read KS. It's easy and not far removed from the SWF, with the advantage of being unambiguous. I find the KS translation of my novel 'The Lyonesse Stone' one of the easiest Cornish texts to read out. I read a passage from it to an audience at St Ives library last year, and it flowed out. Rather than pauses with thoughts of "Oh, crikey, which way do I pronounce this next U?", it shows you how it's pronounced.

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