An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

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carrek
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by carrek » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:54 pm

Marhak wrote:So far, the Signage Panel has agreed a whole sight more than it's disagreed, and there have been some great exchanges and discussions.
Da ew clowes hedna. Ogh, dhe vos kelyonen war'n fos ena!

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Marhak
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Marhak » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:17 pm

Mostly done on line. I don't do the Truro trips any more which is just as well - all my research material's here and I can't get a filing cabinet in a Citroen Saxo (or on a horse).

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GanO
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by GanO » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:21 pm

Marghak a scryfas (moy po le), "Ny alsen-vy desedha restrynva yn Cytrön Sacksa (na war geyn margh nanyl!)."

Abarth an jawl! *Bogglyes yn tyen a vya'm brys ow qweles marth a'n par-na!
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"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

Palores
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Palores » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:14 pm

I can't get a filing cabinet in a Citroen Saxo (or on a horse)
.

One reason why the laptop was invented.

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Marhak
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Marhak » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:15 pm

It would take the rest of my life to put all my research on computer, even if I had the technical skills to do so. Which I haven't.

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Ellery
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Ellery » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:58 pm

Considering that it is the first complete bible in Cornish, why shouldn't it be up to the translator how to spell it?

Nance's spelling was for the bible in English, Beybel is for the Cornish.

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Marhak
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Marhak » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:28 pm

Had the Bible been translated into Cornish at around 1500, would anyone be bitching about its spelling? Hardly - no personal agendas to pursue.

CJenkin
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by CJenkin » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:01 pm

Ellery wrote:Considering that it is the first complete bible in Cornish, why shouldn't it be up to the translator how to spell it?

Nance's spelling was for the bible in English, Beybel is for the Cornish.
Your are right people can write and spell how they please and in any language - doesn't mean that it will have a wide readership though. The point I made in Cornish was that beybel follows the Welsh word which itself came from the English. So actually its the other way round beybel is for an english bible that could be translated, prior to the 16th century (apart from some Lollards) an english bible didn't exist but bibles did exist in Cornwall and Nances word was picked to fill the gap in middle Cornish. There is no reason to make a change based on the views of one individual especially as the logic behind it is so flakey.

Palores
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Palores » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:28 pm

Evertype, thank you for your interesting answer to my question about the spelling <Beybel>.

Two points arise.

I would have thought that a post-Reformation Cornish borrowing from English Bible would appear as <Baybal>.

If the Middle English was "Bibla", why are we not saying "Bibla" in English now?

What really gets my goat, however, is the dogmatic statement by retired Assistant Professor Williams:
The Cornish for Bible is Beybel.
This sort of approach to language planning will not do.

carrek
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by carrek » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:51 pm

Ellery wrote:Considering that it is the first complete bible in Cornish, why shouldn't it be up to the translator how to spell it?
Because it's not a translator's job to make up new ways of spelling a word.

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factotum
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by factotum » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:43 pm

What some people here may not realise is that there is a long-term project well in hand to produce an authoritative Cornish bible translation, and to quote their website :
Twenty Old Testament books have already been published, and work is proceeding on fourteen others


http://www.bibelkernewek.com/

Just as was the case with the NT a few years ago, Williams has put his own ideosyncratic version on the market just ahead of the official version so as to queer their pitch. Williams is basically a classicist, so qualified to handle the Greek original of the NT. What are his credentials in Hebrew and Aramaic, the OT languages?

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GanO
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by GanO » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:21 pm

Palores a scryfas, "I would have thought that a post-Reformation Cornish borrowing from English Bible would appear as <Baybal>"

Ogh, ny vya 'Baybal' gwyw del grysaf: polta re beryllys! Y hyllyr bos kenans rak gul dre syn kenwerthek. Y whelyr henna yn lavar kepar ha,
"My a erghas copy a'n 'Baybal' Kernewek dyworth Amazon, ha'y berna yn tredanegek dre Baypal®™."

Na, a gowetha, y coth dhyn omlewenhe bos lemmyn deu lytherennans an ger-ma: Bybel ha Beybel. Agan tavas re avonsyas dhe'n keth savon ha re a'n yethow Keltek erel, rak ensompel:
Kembrek: Beibl, Bibl
Godhalek Alban: Bìobull, Bìoball -- ha myreugh an dyacrytek hegas y'n geryow-na!!

Na, sos, ny a res aswon gras a demmyk a dregereth … dhe'n lyha ny scryfas Nicholas an ger gans dyacrytek a-ugh pup vogalen ynno, neppyth kepar ha: Bêÿbèl.

;)
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
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"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

carrek
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by carrek » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:11 pm

factotum wrote:Just as was the case with the NT a few years ago, Williams has put his own ideosyncratic version on the market just ahead of the official version so as to queer their pitch.
Official? So the project is under the auspices of Maga and translating into the SWF, then?

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GanO
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by GanO » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:27 pm

ps. as both Welsh and Breton agree on 'Bibl' in both spelling and pronunciation, Nance made a sensible interpolation by adopting the same form for Cornish. It's a mark of Mordon's stature as a linguist that this form (with slight variations in spelling) is the one that's been universally used in Cornish for the last 80 years—until a single dissenting voice spoke up a week or so ago.

Of course, as the translator Williams has the right to use his own coinage if he wishes. How many other Kernewegoryon will also adopt his new coinage remains to be seen. For myself, I see no reason to change and shall stick with Nance (as usual).
Last edited by GanO on Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

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Marhak
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Re: An Beybel Sans in Kernowek (The Holy Bible in Cornish)

Post by Marhak » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:50 pm

What many people may not realise," says Keith. So just how was anyone else supposed to know? Crystal balls? NJAW may have been at this project for a whole lot longer. Who's to know? The CLB doesn't hold a monopoly, Keith, and it did rush out a BK before Williams and Thomas could. Just to queer their pitch? Williams - on his own - completed his bible. The CLB didn't (and, as I hear it, several people have been involved, not just one). Whose fault is that? Not Williams.

Keith's moan reminds me of the Hare and the Tortoise. The hare complaining because he got cocky, thought he had the sole right to achievement, sat on his arse and fell asleep, while the tortoise plodded on regardless and won the race. Only Williams didn't necessarily know that he was in any race. As for Bibl and Beybel, I don't see much to debate between the coinage of one man and that of another.

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