To the poster TGG.

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Shady
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To the poster TGG.

Post by Shady » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:05 pm

AHOY THERE TGG!!

Where's this Cornish genocide happening then?

I can hardly believe it as I go away for a few weeks serving Queen & country & all that.And I come back to Cornwall & you're talking about genocide.

I asked the missus about it & she looked blank & didn't know anything about death camps or thousands of people being carted away in trains.

What's on my 'ansome?

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Marhak
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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by Marhak » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:07 pm

Try looking the word up in the dictionary.

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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by TGG » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:36 pm


Shady by name, shadier by nature! I suspect from your comment that you have no real interest in the topic at all, and.... why do your words sound so familiar? Especially the wife bit. :shock:

Please come back when you have done some basic education on the subject, but specifically to justify any, or all, of your opening remarks, because none of it makes any sense at all. Clearly stated' but utter nonsense!

It is always the case that such people seem to 'have a wife' to reinforce their obvious ignorance. :roll:

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why!
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE! -
They declare their Cornishness with pride
Whilst oblivious to our genocide
That England imposes
With smiles and Red Roses
Where the innocents, so gullibly, reside.


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factotum
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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by factotum » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:25 pm

He's right though. I think you mean "ethnocide" as in "you will be assimilated, resistance is useless ...".
Genocide is a very emotive word implying systematic mass murder of whole populations. Using it in this context only makes you a laughing stock, while at the same time dishonouring the survivors of real holocausts.
Actually resistance is not altogether useless. Where assimilation takes place there is always a large element of complicity, and hence guilt. Much simpler to blame outside forces, yes?

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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by TGG » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:13 pm


Are you really suggesting that "ethnocide" is not also an emotive term? We have discussed this in the past it was only by the 'proverbial' toss of a coin that Lemkin chose Genocide instead of Ethnocide.

Today's imagined difference betwen the two is simply because of the way that the word Genocide has been publically and officially used in the Convention and public perception of the form that registers "shock and awe", whilst the real basis is officially side-stepped. Not forgetting, of course, the official ploy in continually marginalising 'identity'.

A search of this msg board for 'Genocide' will reveal all past discussions, including links to Lemkin. 'Ethnocide' is simply a euphemism for the same atrocity, whether immediate or insidious. It is the process and its end result that is constant and only the method changes. Consider also, Imperialism!

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why!
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE! -
They declare their Cornishness with pride
Whilst oblivious to our genocide
That England imposes
With smiles and Red Roses
Where the innocents, so gullibly, reside.


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factotum
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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by factotum » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:40 pm

OK, the words are not well defined and used inconsistently. My intended meaning was the deliberate destruction of a culture without necessarily involving mass murder. Examples include mass deportations and replacement of populations (Ulster plantations? Highland Clearances?), taking children from their families to break intergenerational cultural and linguistic transmission (Native Australians and Canadians ...) and so on. These processes are done against the will of the population, often rapidly, and not uncommonly involve a degree of violence.

But none of this has ever happened in Cornwall to the best of my knowledge. What has happened is *assimilation*. Assimilation takes place slowly as new ideas, norms, cultural pattens and habits filter in and are emulated by the native population. The important point is that there is no violence and little force. It relies on the compliance of most if not all of the population, indeed those most likely to ridicule the 'old ways' are recently converted natives who want to 'get on in the world', rather than outsiders who generally view local cultures as quaint and harmless.

For examples of cultural oppression in recent times and not too far away we might look to the Catalans and Basques. They both faced sever penalties for even speaking their own languages in public. And yet both languages and identities have survived and are thriving despite all the malice that still comes from Madrid. Where identity is deemed important it is used as a defence against oppression and assimilation. But the Cornish threw in the towel over 200 years ago. Be honest, there is really no genuine Cornish culture left to save, and little will to (re)create one. Just as there is no real political will for independence. Doesn't matter how many ancient charters and constitutional anomalies you can point to, as long as people here continue to vote for the mainstream Westminster parties there will be no change, can be no change. Sad but true.

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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by TGG » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:32 pm


by factotum » 07 Apr 2013 16:40 wrote:

These processes are done against the will of the population, often rapidly, and not uncommonly involve a degree of violence.

Where the process is, in relative terms, “rapid”, it can only be achieved by a degree of coercion and/or violence. Remove the “rapid” and it will inevitably be coercive but insidious – almost inexorable! This is, in essence, the point broadly made by Lemkin in his observations and definition. One thing that EIS has been brilliant at is the insidious nature of its actions, as summed up by Simon Shama and Marc Ferro. Scotland, Wales and Ireland (and other European minorities) have had the critical mass to develop its own elite that has protected them from this. Cornwall, unfortunately has not, but that does not mean that we should not continually make the Cornish Case within an alleged democracy. If the insidious is not dependent on violence and force, in the normally accepted use of those terms, then who can argue that an equally evil process cannot, or does not, occur, with the same intent, over time? What, in effect, is the specific purpose of the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities (FCNM) if not to resist such processes?

by factotum » 07 Apr 2013 16:40 wrote:

What has happened is *assimilation*. Assimilation takes place slowly as new ideas, norms, cultural pattens and habits filter in and are emulated by the native population.[/color]

Assimilation is another euphemism used but which does not replace the charge of genocide, because if there were any respect for the minority peoples involved by the external power elite’s methods of control, then those people would still have the institutions to help consolidate and develop their distinct identity.

Emulating aspects of another culture is fine, if it is your choice, but when that choice is removed from you and it becomes a process of Angification, whether by constitutional, educational or any other socio-political means, then that argument does not hold water. It then becomes ‘forced assimimlation’ by deception and propaganda and some of the victims gradually become unwitting puppets of the EIS. Then the process that you describe becomes ever more prevalent. Indeed, with recent advances, it will become increasingly something that will become measurable. The only way to stem the tide, and reverse it, is to ‘dig in’ and fight your corner. That, as I see it is what the Cornish Rennaisance over the past, say, 200 years has been about.

by factotum » 07 Apr 2013 16:40 wrote:

Where identity is deemed important it is used as a defence against oppression and assimilation. But the Cornish threw in the towel over 200 years ago. Be honest, there is really no genuine Cornish culture left to save, and little will to (re)create one. Just as there is no real political will for independence.

This nicely leads on from my previous comment. Nevertheless, you imply that over 200 years ago someone threw a switch, which made the Cornish ‘throw in the towel’. How do you know that? What happened?

I would say that it was completely the other way around. With an 18th C growing interest by antiquarians and linguistic intellectuals, the late 19th C shock of an ‘English’ education system and ‘English’ county status, followed by cultural and, eventually, political awareness. Not much different, one might say, to that of many other minorities. I have been around for rather a long time and seen considerable changes in general Cornish awareness. Our failing is, possibly, that we seem afraid to call a spade a ‘Cornish’ shovel.

You are, of course, entitled to hold your opinion, as I am mine, and only time can, and will, judge which of us is right. However, if you are 'honest', then you cannot be blind to the progress being made on many fronts. Will it be enough? Only time will tell, but (if not) we will have given something (to be proud of) for objective history to record the evil for posterity.

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why!
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE! -
They declare their Cornishness with pride
Whilst oblivious to our genocide
That England imposes
With smiles and Red Roses
Where the innocents, so gullibly, reside.


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Shady
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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by Shady » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:25 pm

TGG wrote:
Shady by name, shadier by nature! I suspect from your comment that you have no real interest in the topic at all, and.... why do your words sound so familiar? Especially the wife bit. :shock:

Please come back when you have done some basic education on the subject, but specifically to justify any, or all, of your opening remarks, because none of it makes any sense at all. Clearly stated' but utter nonsense!

It is always the case that such people seem to 'have a wife' to reinforce their obvious ignorance. :roll:

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why!
Good evening TGG.

If you don't know how to answer the question or are unable to,then please don't waffle.

And please explain your antagonism towards women.

Finally,if you use words like genocide to describe how you perceive something that may or may not be happening,then expect people to question you.

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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by Shady » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:25 pm

factotum wrote:He's right though. I think you mean "ethnocide" as in "you will be assimilated, resistance is useless ...".
Genocide is a very emotive word implying systematic mass murder of whole populations. Using it in this context only makes you a laughing stock, while at the same time dishonouring the survivors of real holocausts.
Actually resistance is not altogether useless. Where assimilation takes place there is always a large element of complicity, and hence guilt. Much simpler to blame outside forces, yes?
Good evening Factotum.

Agreed.

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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by factotum » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:50 am

I suspect that I'm about as far away from Shady on the political spectrum as it's possible to be, as I would really love to see Cornwall as a proud, innovative, self-confident nation/culture. However my annoyance is against (1) wishful thinking and (2) trying to put the blame elsewhere. When I first came to live in Cornwall, over 20 years ago now, many of my contacts were with language activists who by and large were also political nationalists. I took on board their vision of Cornwall, which indeed made a lot of sense. However as time as gone on I have seen little progress, and come to realise that whilst the vision may be a good one, it isn't general in Cornwall, it's only held by a tiny minority outside of the mainstream. That is the fact, and unless you accept that fact and figure out how to reach your goal *by starting from where we are* not where you think we ought to be, then the 'movement' is stuck. It doesn't make sense to most people, it gains no real traction.

Yes indeed there are 'insidious' social forces, but people are not sheep. They always have choices. It a new idea, fashion, technology etc. is harmful to a local culture it will be resisted, or adapted in some special way. But the Cornish have not put up any real resistance in say the past 200 years or more. They have gladly, willingly assimilated to mainstream UK habits, fashions and values. Now I don't mean London and the Home Counties, they are a world of their own. But Cornwall is really no different from most of England. They rolled over, and they did it because they wanted to.

If you're reading this you have a computer and a phone line, or maybe a smart phone. Not long ago no one had these, in their present form they didn't exist. Did someone put a gun to your head and make you acquire and use these tools? I doubt it, you simply decided that the advantages were worth the costs. I expect you have a car. I don't because in my case I don't think it would be worth the cost and trouble. My decision, you may or may not agree, but I have never been put under pressure to change. I drink tea, maybe you don't, I speak Cornish, you probably don't. Between 300 and 200 years ago, most people in Cornwall decided they didn't want to speak Cornish any more and by omission deprived their descendants of this heritage. To them it no longer made sense, it just wasn't worth the trouble. It might have been used to help sustain the concept of the Cornish as a distinct nation, language is an important marker, although not the only one. But clearly Cornishness was not really very important to them. Nor is it very important to most people now, and Cornwall will be well and truly screwed in the years to come as a result. They no longer really have any separate culture from England, they no longer feel separate or look separate from the outside. Why do you think they're not recognised under the FCNM? Because there's precious little on the ground to recognise.

If Cornwall felt itself to be a nation, then when the devo petition was ignored there would have been demos from Lands End to Launceston, but nothing happened. The Cornish said, "OK, well that's all right then". Or in many cases, "Yes, Sir, No, Sir, Three effing bags full, Sir". They rolled over again. Pathetic!

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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by TGG » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:28 pm


With respect, factotum, all that you are really saying in effect is that Cornwall has lacked, and is lacking, leadership. On that point alone I am in full agreement with you. The management of the Cornish Renaissance has been non-existent for centuries and has not materially improved even now. Perhaps it was never felt to be necessary? Can you identify the historical hierarchy in our Cornish Duchy? There has been a much fragmented attempt 'to respond' over the time-period that you refer to, but which you do not seem willing to acknowledge has existed. However, it obviously led to the point where you seem to admit that the vision was correct, say, 20 years ago when you came to Cornwall.

By deduction that vision must have originated somewhere in the past and driven by something even older, yet you choose not to comment upon my synopsis of attitudes over the past 200-300 years which surely proves your hypothesis wrong. You also seem to ignore the rapid expansion of post war migration into the Duchy over which the Cornish themselves have had no control and which inevitably led to the published research of CoSERG in 1988.

What Cornwall needs is a wide-ranging sociological study that can attempt to unravel the truth and segregate the Establishment misrepresentation and deception from the grass-roots psychology of the Cornish people themselves, because I feel that you would be surprised at what it revealed and which, once again, would prove your hypothesis to be completely incorrect. You say that the Cornish are not being subjected to processes of Genocide, I have shown on many occasions that they are, yet you only offer some very generalised suppositions as a counter argument, whilst seemingly willing to make passing references to terms like nation and nationalist. Isn’t that itself rather odd after a 1000 years of supposedly ‘English Rule’.

My big question is wherever did such a notion come from and when was it extinguished? An even bigger question: By whom? A nation just does not destroy itself!

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why!
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE! -
They declare their Cornishness with pride
Whilst oblivious to our genocide
That England imposes
With smiles and Red Roses
Where the innocents, so gullibly, reside.


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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by factotum » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:21 am

If the Cornish could project a positive confident self image then they would assimilate incomers rather than be assimilated by them. People who liked the Cornish ethos would come here and those who didn't would go somewhere else, at least to some extent. You only have to look to the IoM, which is less than half the size of Corwall, and which seems to be becoming more not less Manx in the past decade or two.

I'm not sure if by leaders you mean rabble rousers. If you mean thinkers, planners, visionaries, then surely we have them. I recall for example the book "Cornwall at the Crossroads" from when, maybe 15 years ago? It was full of good positive ideas for Cornwall, most of all the need to lose the colonial mentality and turn "conventional wisdom" (London style that is) on it's head. Great ideas, great inspiration. What happened? SFA as usual. Somewhere there's a massive disconnect. I don't honestly understand it because people signed the petition, and the flag flies throughout the land. Some sort of doublethink maybe? I hate to be a prophet of doom, but once Scotland has gone, and with a bit of luck maybe Wales too, the English will destroy Cornwall in their last gasp frenzy of empire. Be warned, they have nowhere else to relocate Trident, which is the key to their permanent seat on the UN Security Council, which means they can still play at being a Great World Power. They'll do whatever it takes to hang on to that.

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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by TGG » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:02 pm


Factotum, many thanks for the reply and I shall give a proper response later today.

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why!
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE! -
They declare their Cornishness with pride
Whilst oblivious to our genocide
That England imposes
With smiles and Red Roses
Where the innocents, so gullibly, reside.


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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by TGG » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:09 pm


The first part of your first paragraph is spot on and for a very short period this ethos was sustained by the visionary initiative of instituting a twice yearly Conference on Cornwall, which had as its sole objective the bringing together of all Cornish Interest groups to discuss common issues within a series of ‘themed’ conferences. If nothing else, this showed the power of coming together and having a unified approach in dissemination of news and views on fundamental issues. It realised a rapid growth in the number of working groups and organisations that were formed to expand the coverage of activities necessary. However, when the founding fathers felt that it had taken on a life of its own and passed over the responsibility and organisational reins to others, then it quickly foundered, because essentially as an organisation in its own right it should have been free of the constraints imposed by the need to wear too many hats. So anyone with a disciplined interest in Cornish affairs, and a good working team, could easily rebuild the secretariat and continue business as usual. Sadly, whilst the most important thing that our nation needs could easily be re-instituted, it is not a particularly glamorous one and represent hard but fruitful work. I was pleased to see that there is a brief Wiki Stub about it here

You seek to make a comparison with the Isle of Man. There is no such comparison, in the same way that, likewise, there are no comparisons between any of the other Celtic Nations. Each is its own story and each has its own challenges to be overcome. They exist for differing reasons and have to be resolved in their own way. It is an error of political judgement to think that there is. There may be some ‘general’ similarities, but each has its own footprint and shoe size. I would argue that Cornwall is also becoming ‘more Cornish’ as time passes. You seem to have a particularly morbid view of the Cornish world, because you have nothing to really compare it with. Whilst, for failures stated above, I feel our progress could and should have been much greater, it is quite wrong to take such a negative stance on what has, and is continuing, to happen.

I am mystified as to why you should consider that my reference to ‘leaders’ might, or could, possibly be implying to, what you term “rabble rousers”? Perhaps instead I should refer to what Dr Rob Burton identifies as “Intellectual Entrepreneurs”. There is a need, of course for anyone that is capable of raising an awareness of Cornish history, politics, constitution and culture etc., but from a genuine practitioner point of view. Yes we do have them… NOW!… but they have been sadly lacking in the past and now the task in hand is much greater as a consequence of their inaction to act in the interests of Cornwall and the Cornish people in particular. We do also need, of course, those that are prepared to go that extra distance.

I cannot disagree with you on the “Cornwall at the Crossroads” issue in 1988. Where then were our “Intellectual Entrepreneurs”? There are, again, underlying positive signs, but critically uncoordinated. So true on many similar past, and more recent, campaigns. That is what happened! Just plain and simple partisan self-interest rather than a unified approach in tackling crucially focussed key issues. Perhaps you arrived on the crest of that wave?? From my own perspective, they are just working within the impossible constraints that the Establishment imposes upon them and not thinking outside of the externally-created box. Cornish issues are unique to the Cornish, yet there is no ‘obviously Cornish’ action. Nevertheless, this will eventually come and as long as the ‘awareness’ campaign continues, there will be, hopefully, the very necessary groundswell of opinion to support it, when the time comes.

It has to be observed that, whilst you do not wish to sound like a ‘prophet of doom’, you seem incapable, or reluctant, to look for the positives that are going on around you. Does this indicate that you are, perhaps, an observer from the sidelines rather than a practitioner and that if you became more involved, then you might better appreciate what we have had to contend with and overcome. We would all like for things to happen quicker, but there is a certain reassurance with things happening in their own natural timescale. When the time is right, then things will happen. It is up to us to make sure that they are all driven and positive.

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why!
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE! -
They declare their Cornishness with pride
Whilst oblivious to our genocide
That England imposes
With smiles and Red Roses
Where the innocents, so gullibly, reside.


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Re: To the poster TGG.

Post by factotum » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:07 pm

Like you, a quick response to your informative answer. I should point out that my Contacts with Cornish activists (for want of a better term) have been a bit spotty over the years, as there were periods when I was involved in organisations 'up-country' that took most of my attention, so that for instance I was aware of the Conference on Cornwall, and then next thing I knew it seemed to have somehow faded away, and so on. Things seem to be happening, and then you turn around and nothing is happening. You're clearly better placed to than me to know what went wrong. The real question is does anyone know how to succeed?

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