Discussion on the Cornish Language and the history of Kernow

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
Angofbew
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Post by Angofbew » Fri May 19, 2006 7:12 pm

Likewise, you are a bit of a self important blinkered type, aren't you?
Yet when you cannot answer a point you just ignore it, well i can ignore the likes of you. You, thankfully are totally irrelevent.

Xxxxxx
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Post by Xxxxxx » Sat May 20, 2006 1:46 am


Yet when you cannot answer a point you just ignore it, well i can ignore the likes of you.


Well if you point me at the "quote" you want answered, I'll answer it for you.

Porthia1947
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Post by Porthia1947 » Sat May 20, 2006 6:42 pm

angofbew wrote
when the reformation took place, armed soldiers were placed in cornish churches to make sure the people did not say things like the lords prayer in cornish, they were placed there to ensure english was spoken, now thats an historical fact.



I don't know if this is true or not (and I'm not saying it isn't) but I have never heard this before. Could you give me a reference for this. If it's historical fact it must be well known among Cornish historians (other than JA).

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Coady
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Post by Coady » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:23 pm

I'm no expert, but I'm sure that I have read about the military enforcing English religious services, and read it in something 'respectable', so I am inclined to believe it.....but why should we be we outraged now? All governments 'crack down' on their people when they become rebellious against the law.. in our times it has been the same, poll tax riots, miners strikes...its pretty well continuous throughout history, and all round the world.

In many respects, the insistence of English in religious services was more to do with the rejection of the Latin services, and anything to do with Roman Catholicism across the whole country than any SPECIFIC attack on the Cornish language and culture.

Some people would 'kidnap' the issue and try to make us believe that the rebellion was about protecting language and culture, but that just doesn't FEEL right to me. Rebellions, revolutions and the like are historically more about 'Leaders' with charisma whipping 'the people' into a frenzy about some real or perceived injustice to acheive the more personal and political aims and ambitions of "The Leaders"......

.... a bit like some of the posters on here....though I'm not sure about the Charisma bit.......

Graham.
We live in interesting times!

FlammNew
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Post by FlammNew » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:33 pm


why should we be we outraged now?



Perhaps because it's taken this long for the rise in Cornish cultural consciousness to become aware of the lasting damage it did to us.


All governments 'crack down' on their people when they become rebellious against the law.



Quite, but when people with no voice and no representation get dumped on from a great height, what are they to do? Seems like you'd be happier to roll over and take whatever the government does to you without comment or complaint simply because they are the government. Governments are only people, and sadly all people are fallible and make mistakes (well, except stroppy of course!).

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Coady
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Post by Coady » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:24 pm

..But Flamm... such STUPID rebellions.. against an opponent KNOWN to be ruthless and vastly more powerful. What on earth were their leaders thinking of? ..and was it a rebellion of an informed and aggrieved people? Or was it the result of self interested rabble rousing.

I regularly drive past the statue in St Keverne, and always am reminded of the futile agony and loss of life caused by an angry blacksmith and a nobleman's son, who misled ordinary Cornishmen into massacre, and set Cornwall's cause back generations.

I really think these miserably and predictably failed rebellions of half a millenium ago are very poor icons for any resurgeance of Cornish Identity.

Graham.
We live in interesting times!

FlammNew
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Post by FlammNew » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:56 pm


I really think these miserably and predictably failed rebellions of half a millenium ago are very poor icons for any resurgeance of Cornish Identity.



Because they took a stand against a stronger oppressor when their fellow countrymen were suffering? Yes, pretty poor actions to teach our children about. Much better to say "yes, sir, no, sir" and tug your forelock regardless of how much you are put upon, eh?

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Coady
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Post by Coady » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:04 pm

Now.....did I say that?
There are better ways... what they did was stupid and harmful to Cornwall. I'm sorry to burst your balloon, but "Ee who can't schemie mus louster"...and what was this "suffering"? Most of the suffering came AFTER the rebellions, and one was about a prayer book...very Christian!

Graham.
We live in interesting times!

FlammNew
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Post by FlammNew » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:29 pm


"Coady" said:
what was this "suffering"?



If you don't even know what the situation was in Cornwall that lead to the An Gof and Prayerbook Rebellions you really shouldn't be expressing an opinion about it.


very Christian



See what repression and murder Christians carried out in Africa, in India, in North and South America, in the Crusades, all in the name of religion. What point were you making exactly?

Hunlef
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Post by Hunlef » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:52 pm



What point were you making exactly?





He's ably made the point that he's ignorant.

Despite his claim to have recieved an all-encompassing, balanced education which enlightened him in all aspects of Cornish history and such matters, it is sad to see that the expense incurred by the state has been, in his case, completely wasted.

It might be best if my mate Coady were to dig out those old Cornwall County Council school exercise books to refresh his memory!

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Coady
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Post by Coady » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:34 pm

My point, quite clear I thought, is that two failed rebellions 500 years ago are a poor choice of icons in any drive to an enhanced Cornish Identity. You can nit-pick, and call me ignorant to your heart's content, but take away the romantic clap-trap about the brave, oppressed rebels, and look at the rebellions for what they were, and the dreadful outcome they brought about.

Graham.
We live in interesting times!

Hunlef
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Post by Hunlef » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:14 am



My point, quite clear I thought, is that two failed rebellions 500 years ago are a poor choice of icons in any drive to an enhanced Cornish Identity. You can nit-pick, and call me ignorant to your heart's content, but take away the romantic clap-trap about the brave, oppressed rebels, and look at the rebellions for what they were, and the dreadful outcome they brought about.




And my point is equally clear. These are issues which you raised! We were talking generally about Cornish history, or lack of it in schools. To my knowledge, nobody else has made An Gof and Flamank central pillars of any claim to Cornish idenity. They are a factor in it, yes but a relatively small factor.

That having been said, when it comes to human rights, the experiences of 1497 and 1549 are immensley important to knowledgeable Cornish people. The reasons why Flamank and An Gof took the stance they did were based in law, the very same laws which remain on the statute books today. Without any basis in law, they would have been doomed to failure. As it happens, that was the result anyway but there is a salutory lesson in the story.

The rebellions were uprisings against unjust laws and taxation (without representation!). If you were taught anything about such subjects in school, then you will have a basic understanding of civil, political and human rights, all of which have beginnings in the many uprisings, rebellions against unjust laws and customs in the past. If you were exposed to these concepts when at school, you have failed to understand them and do not realise the significance they have in today's society which in a European context, at least, is based upon the rule of law, democracy and human rights.

It is bizarre that you, a supposed Cornishman, disparage key stages and figures in your Cornish history (you confirmed that they were included in your state history education) and dismiss them as "romantic clap-trap". If that is the case, then it looks as though the state authorities responsible for your education have failed miserably in their task and you should be deeply ashamed of yourself.

BTW, what school did you attend and when? I am interested because of your statements concerning history education dispensed at your school. I was educated in Cornwall and received no instruction concerning the history of my ancestors, culture and most definitely nothing about Cornish rebels. I would like to know since your school seems worthy of note and, if you attended recently, I would also like to praise the school authorities for their uniquely enlightened approach to Cornish history.

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Anselm
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Re: Discussion on the Cornish Language and the history of Ke

Post by Anselm » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:58 am

Yma omma dew dybyans yn kever gorthrygh ha kompressyans. herwydh an eyl, ny goedh sevel orta ha'n re usi ow kodhevel a vydh dhe'ga blamya rag aga godhevyans aga honan. Herwydh y gila, gwell yw assaya sevel orta yn despit dhe bub peryll.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
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Anselm
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Re: Discussion on the Cornish Language and the history of Ke

Post by Anselm » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:00 am

Y'n gwella prys dhymmo vy, yma lies tra dha y'm bywnans rag yth o tus an termyn kyns parys dhe sevel aga thir orth kompressyans kyn na welens govenek budhygolyeth.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Marhak
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Re: Discussion on the Cornish Language and the history of Ke

Post by Marhak » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:44 am

I think there should be statue of Humphrey Arundell, as well. Yes, the Cornish went up against a vastly more powerful army in 1497 and 1549. In 1497 they were unlucky - the English army were supposed to have set off on their march to Scotland, but were still at Blackheath when the Cornish force arrived. In two of the 1549 battles, the English (foreign mercenaries and all) came close to defeat and, if the Cornish force had a trained cavalry, they'd have won it. Comments by Lord Grey at Clyst Heath and Lord Russell at Sampford Courtney clearly show that the resolve of the Cornish fighters scared the life out of them. Lord Grey had "Never seen the like", and yet he'd fought in that horrendous battle at Musselburgh.

There were Stannary rights issues (hardly ever mentioned by the mainstream histories) to both events, and they were linked. In the first Henry VII had suspended the Stannary Parliament but the march of London, and the Perkin Warbeck debacle just afterwards, had their effect. In 1508, he not only restored the Parliament (for a hefty fee, it has to be said, but the Royals were always an acquisitive lot), but gave the the famous powers of veto over Westminster Acts that affected Cornwall. 1549 effectively happened when London ignored that right, and forcibly imposed Cranmer's Act of Uniformity, taking just 41 years to trample all over those rights of veto granted under Royal Charter.

I see the events of 1497 and 1549 as symbolising the days when there was still Celtic fire in Cornish blood, when we didn't stand for any nonsense and when injustices were met with resistance, and not the apathy of the modern era. Too few of us still seem to have that fire in our blood. Too few and too scattered. London is quite aware of that.

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